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Old 17th March 2016, 09:58 PM   #1
Ken Maddock
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Default Khanda sword

Hi all
Purchased the attached sword
Looking for some advice
I normally do not clean up my swords but this one needs a lot if TLC
Before I attempt I want to make a few enquiries before I go along a route that it is very hard to recover from
Overall description is that the khanda is a bit unusual in that it has a tulwar type handle as opposed to the normal basket and secondly it is very short at 22.5 inches blade length and 27.5 overall length
I am thinking about how to clean up the sword
I feel to clean it properly I need to remove the fretting re enforcement on the blade or else I will not get the blade cleaned into the groves of the fretting, you should be able to see the pin holding the fretting on the longest side, would ther be a pin on both ends if the fretting and is it a friction fit or is it soldered to the blade
Also I will have to remove the blade out of the handlebuti have re seated blades into the resin with no real difficulty.
So question iis, is this a rare blade or is the blade of no real value so I have nothing to loose
Any idea of age or cleaning advice welcomed
Regards and happy st Patricks day
Ken
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Old 17th March 2016, 10:36 PM   #2
ariel
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Is there a hole in the blade for the purported "khanda handle" rivet?
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Old 17th March 2016, 10:38 PM   #3
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Default suspcious

Maybe I am paranoid, but I suspect a tourist Khanda.

The blade of a typical Khanda is flat and rather flexible, and that's why it needs the side reinforcements. This one appears to have a ridge.

I would advise against any attempt to disassemble the blade for cleaning.
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Old 17th March 2016, 11:03 PM   #4
Ken Maddock
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Hi
Thanks for the replies
Yes
There is a hole in the fretting with a rivet which seems to be holding the fretting to the blade
Yes there is a ridge on the blade
It seems to me to be a working blade but maybe a tourist item, this I do not
know
If any more photos would help it is no problem
Cheers
Ken
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Last edited by Ken Maddock : 17th March 2016 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 17th March 2016, 11:23 PM   #5
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I believe what Ariel was looking for would be a hole under the langets.
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Old 18th March 2016, 02:57 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
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Interesting conundrum.
Obviously the hilt is a reasonably modern tulwar type (relatively) and could be 19th century Rajasthan product. Khanda blades are of course from centuries earlier into medieval period. While there seems to be good age patination on the blade, it is hard to guage from photos, and the bright spots are of concern for metal of such presumed age.

The blade itself seems rather 'shapeless' and rudimentary, but I would point out that khanda blades of early times, though often flat, were also often with central ridge ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", Elgood. p.81-82, fig. 8.11).
The plates running along the edges were as much for added weight to downward blows as for strength, and the shorter for grasping of blade if required.
The usual hilt on these was of course the basket type hilt with the long stem extending to grip as well.

In most cases on authentic khanda there were bolsters (trunking) extending down the forte and riveted to the blade (as mentioned by Ariel).

The blade edge plates on this seem rudimentary and lack the usual openwork or piercings of most examples.

While always trying to be optimistic, this example seems somewhat off center though hard to say from photos, the incongruent use of the tulwar hilt notwithstanding....and may have been intended for ceremonial or votive use. It does not seem close enough stylistically for a souvenier or 'collectible'.
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Old 18th March 2016, 08:53 AM   #7
Ken Maddock
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Thanks
Gentlemen for your information
Some answers
There is no rivet holding the handle to the blade, it seems to be entirely held in by resin
There are no bright spots of metal on the blade, the white bits are white paint, there are more spots of other colours here and there.
I purchased at an auction in Ireland so no story with the sword.

The blade length is quiet short at just over two foot but has a hefty weight to it.
I have handled and owned a fair amount of similar items so I do think it is a fighting item but I have been wrong many times
I will report back with a weight when I get to a scales
Thanks
Ken
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Old 18th March 2016, 11:20 AM   #8
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On the most part of Indian painting the khandas had tulwar-type handle.
I like this item. Real sword.
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Old 18th March 2016, 04:55 PM   #9
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If there is no rivet hole under the langet, the unusual length of the blade is more likely to be explained by the loss of the distal part . Usually, khandas have a spoon-like widening of the tip and very often it is either rounded or triangular but with a very obtuse angle. Yours is quite sharp and fit for stabbing.

I think the sword was reworked. Whether it was during its active life, to preserve its fighting function, or much later on, to preserve it as a decorative item, I can't tell.

Hell of a job you are going to have cleaning the rust....
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Old 18th March 2016, 07:04 PM   #10
Jim McDougall
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The great part about discussion is that exchange of ideas and observations expand the comprehension of the subject in working toward a more conclusive evaluation or better posed options.
I think Ariel makes good points here (no pun intended) regarding the blade. Though some examples were indeed shorter than others, this seems a bit shorter than those typically shown in references. The lack of the 'trunking' rivet holes at forte does seem significant, and reworking of the blade quite possible.
The tip of this blade seems atypical toward either the 'spatulate' flare or the acute point of spear or other shapes usually seen on early khandas. It seems too 'rebated' for thrust however, and it seems that the swordsmanship of these times favored heavy chopping or slashing cuts instead.
I would not have suspected paint in the blade patches, but not surprised between these old eyes and my less than high tech computer 'skills'(?).
That is a relief though! and though I cannot imagine why paint would be there......it bolsters the value of that patination.

If up to me, I would leave darkened patination alone as to me it adds to the historical demeanor of the sword. I am only for stabilizing active corrosion and any damage. As for the paint spots, remove or darken accordingly.
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Old 18th March 2016, 08:44 PM   #11
Ken Maddock
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Hi all
For the sake of completion of the information I have added two more pictures
One of the tip which looks to be less than profesionally shaped
I assume this gives credence for the spatula tip been re shaped
The width at tip is 1 and 5/8 inch or 40 mm
It would have no stabbing capability though
I hope you can see the pronounced ridge on the blade I also have attached a photo of the handle to show what a work of art this once was

I will clean the paint and the crud off the blade and see how it looks, leave well enough alone Is the mantra I tend to adopt and as the weapon has some age to it I will not ruin it

If the blade is an original khanda middle ridge blade would anyone care to give a guesstimate on age

Thanks again
Ken
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Old 18th March 2016, 10:15 PM   #12
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Default Cleaning suggestion

Hi Ken,
You might try pineapple juice for cleaning the blade. It is VERY gentle but takes quite a while depending on the amount of rust to be removed.
METHOD: Use a piece of plastic pipe of suitable diameter and length, capped and sealed at one end. Fill this with the juice and suspend the blade. After a few days remove blade and use very fine steel wool to remove loose rust. Repeat process 'til blade is clean.
This method will of course also remove any rust in the "teeth" of the edge plates.
I have used this method in the past with good success.
By the way you can buy the juice cheaply at your local Supermarket.
Stu
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Old 19th March 2016, 02:12 PM   #13
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What about WD-40 " Rust Remover Soak"?

Anybody here had any experience with it?
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Old 19th March 2016, 06:01 PM   #14
Ken Maddock
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I will have to have a good think about my next step as I do not want to remove the platina
Will pineapple juice strip back to clean metal or leave the brown in situ?
I have looked up a few treads on the forum and hard to find a concencus of opinion.
Regards
Ken
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Old 19th March 2016, 07:00 PM   #15
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Wink

For removing rust, I use Picreator's Metal De-corroder. It however, removes all rust and oxidation down to the healthy base (so it also removes the patina). It is non-aggressive and environment-friendly, but is expensive.

However, before starting to clean the blade, consider carefully if it's worth the effort and the risk.
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Old 19th March 2016, 09:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Maddock
I will have to have a good think about my next step as I do not want to remove the platina
Will pineapple juice strip back to clean metal or leave the brown in situ?
I have looked up a few treads on the forum and hard to find a concencus of opinion.
Regards
Ken

Hi Ken,
It is a while since I last used this method but seem to remember that the metal came up quite clean, so it is likely that patina could be removed, BUT the rust on your blade looks quite thick so what do you class as "patina"?
Stu
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Old 19th March 2016, 10:38 PM   #17
Jens Nordlunde
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I know that your main interest is the blade, but why did you never describe the hilt?
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Old 20th March 2016, 08:16 AM   #18
Ken Maddock
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Hi Jens
No reason, I am a beginner in this sort of study and do not really know what to talk about
I just took the hilt as a tulwar handle, with some silvering
Is there anything else to be discerned Jim suggested it is Rajasthan in type from 19 th century.
Do you want any more photographs to help with any identification.
Cheers
Ken
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Old 20th March 2016, 09:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
If there is no rivet hole under the langet, the unusual length of the blade is more likely to be explained by the loss of the distal part . Usually, khandas have a spoon-like widening of the tip and very often it is either rounded or triangular but with a very obtuse angle. Yours is quite sharp and fit for stabbing.

I think the sword was reworked. Whether it was during its active life, to preserve its fighting function, or much later on, to preserve it as a decorative item, I can't tell.

Hell of a job you are going to have cleaning the rust....


Something new for rust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfczxBWJuNg#t=36
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Old 22nd March 2016, 07:11 PM   #20
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Old 5th August 2017, 02:23 AM   #21
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Hi ken, just been clicking through the forums, was really interested to know how the clean up went ? Any pics ?
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