Bali Keris, original stain and other comments

asomotif · 28th June 2010, 12:58 AM

Hello folks,

I managed to pick up this Bali keris pure on esthetics and personal taste.
Now I would like to check a few things.

- It looks original stain to me. am I right ?

- there are some markings on the ganja. the seem deliberate to me.
Do they have a meaning or purpose.

- Is there any indication on age ?

Thanks for any input,

Best regards,
Willem

kai · 29th June 2010, 09:52 AM

Hello Willem,

Yes, looks like original Balinese warangan treatment to me, too.

I don't doubt that the blade is antique. The long part of the ganja looks a bit shortened.

Have you a close-up of those 2 triple marks close to the pesi? Are these also present on the other side of the blade? The marks on top of the ganja are even more weird... Congrats - nice acquisition!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th June 2010, 09:54 AM

BTW, the tip of the scabbard looks like a later repair to me.

asomotif · 29th June 2010, 11:48 AM

Hello Kai,

I will try to make some better pictures of the triple markings.
To be honest, I noticed them only on the pictures after I posted them.

I also have the idea that the ganja is missing a litlle part. Maybe once bended and broken in the past.

The scabbard tip looks original to me.
The very subtle wood on the front is an inlay, so that is why it ends in a straight line at the bottom.

Best regards,
Willem

Lew · 29th June 2010, 12:15 PM

Willem

When was the last time blades were actually made on Bali 1950s-70? blade could be early to mid 20th century. Anyway it's real nice.

Lew

David · 29th June 2010, 01:02 PM

I also think this is an old Bali blade, probably 19th century, with an old Bali stain. The tip of the scabbard doesn't look like a repair to me. It is very common for there to be a nice piece of patterned wood inlaid into to front of the stem like this.
I agree that the gonjo looks a bit short, though i cannot tell from the photos if it has been shortened or just made this way. The markings are unusual and very interesting and i would think most definitely intentional. No clue as to way though.

Lew, i could be wrong, but i don't think there has been much keris production in Bali post WWII. All those contemporary "Bali" blades we are seeing are coming from Madura or Jawa.

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2010, 01:26 PM

The tip of the scabbard has not been repaired, this style is common.

The gonjo has been damaged and shortened.

The marks in the top of the gonjo may be bekas kinatah --- places where kinatah work was. Cannot say with certainty from a photo, but it looks like it.

I saw keris being made in Blahbatu near Gianyar , and spoke at length with the maker about 5 or 6 years ago --- forget name and exact date, but it is in my diary. Then there was Mpu Mangku Wije near Klungkung, I saw him working and spoke with him in about 1984. I understand there are still a couple of people forging and carving, and there are others who carve forgings made in Madura.

David · 29th June 2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The marks in the top of the gonjo may be bekas kinatah --- places where kinatah work was. Cannot say with certainty from a photo, but it looks like it.

That makes sense. What do you think about the 3-diamond pattern on the side of the gonjo and the base of the blade. Also a kinatah anchor?

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2010, 01:51 PM

I do not know of a kinatah pattern that would use this.

I'd need to look at it under magnification to form a supportable opinion, but my impression is that it is the result of gripping with something like vicegrips to hold the gonjo in correct alignment while fitting a new key --- or maybe just aralditing.

Gustav · 29th June 2010, 06:09 PM

It seems, buntut of gonjo is broken where the third hole was situated (or fourth, if there should be one on sirah cecak side).

asomotif · 30th June 2010, 03:41 PM

Thanks all for your input and info.

Gustav, yes there is a fourth Kinatah (see pic 1)

Allan, why are you so often right ?

Closer inspecition indeed looks like grip marks on the blade (see pic 2)

Best regards,
Willem

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2010, 09:20 PM

I'm not infrequently wrong too, Willem --- even though I've been playing with keris for just about 55 years now.

GIO · 1st July 2010, 06:44 PM

I agree: vice marks.
As to the marks on top of the ganja, I confess my ignorance.
Nice keris, though, my compliments

28th June 2010, 12:58 AM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Bali Keris, original stain and other comments Hello folks, I managed to pick up this Bali keris pure on esthetics and personal taste. Now I would like to check a few things. - It looks original stain to me. am I right ? - there are some markings on the ganja. the seem deliberate to me. Do they have a meaning or purpose. - Is there any indication on age ? Thanks for any input, Best regards, Willem Attached Images

30th June 2010, 03:41 PM	#11
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Thanks all for your input and info. Gustav, yes there is a fourth Kinatah (see pic 1) Allan, why are you so often right ? Closer inspecition indeed looks like grip marks on the blade (see pic 2) Best regards, Willem Attached Images

1st July 2010, 06:44 PM	#13
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 311	Bali keris I agree: vice marks. As to the marks on top of the ganja, I confess my ignorance. Nice keris, though, my compliments

29th June 2010, 09:52 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,220	Hello Willem, Yes, looks like original Balinese warangan treatment to me, too. I don't doubt that the blade is antique. The long part of the ganja looks a bit shortened. Have you a close-up of those 2 triple marks close to the pesi? Are these also present on the other side of the blade? The marks on top of the ganja are even more weird... Congrats - nice acquisition! Regards, Kai

29th June 2010, 09:54 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,220	BTW, the tip of the scabbard looks like a later repair to me.

29th June 2010, 11:48 AM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Hello Kai, I will try to make some better pictures of the triple markings. To be honest, I noticed them only on the pictures after I posted them. I also have the idea that the ganja is missing a litlle part. Maybe once bended and broken in the past. The scabbard tip looks original to me. The very subtle wood on the front is an inlay, so that is why it ends in a straight line at the bottom. Best regards, Willem

29th June 2010, 12:15 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Willem When was the last time blades were actually made on Bali 1950s-70? blade could be early to mid 20th century. Anyway it's real nice. Lew

29th June 2010, 01:02 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,031	I also think this is an old Bali blade, probably 19th century, with an old Bali stain. The tip of the scabbard doesn't look like a repair to me. It is very common for there to be a nice piece of patterned wood inlaid into to front of the stem like this. I agree that the gonjo looks a bit short, though i cannot tell from the photos if it has been shortened or just made this way. The markings are unusual and very interesting and i would think most definitely intentional. No clue as to way though. Lew, i could be wrong, but i don't think there has been much keris production in Bali post WWII. All those contemporary "Bali" blades we are seeing are coming from Madura or Jawa.

29th June 2010, 01:26 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	The tip of the scabbard has not been repaired, this style is common. The gonjo has been damaged and shortened. The marks in the top of the gonjo may be bekas kinatah --- places where kinatah work was. Cannot say with certainty from a photo, but it looks like it. I saw keris being made in Blahbatu near Gianyar , and spoke at length with the maker about 5 or 6 years ago --- forget name and exact date, but it is in my diary. Then there was Mpu Mangku Wije near Klungkung, I saw him working and spoke with him in about 1984. I understand there are still a couple of people forging and carving, and there are others who carve forgings made in Madura.

29th June 2010, 01:51 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	I do not know of a kinatah pattern that would use this. I'd need to look at it under magnification to form a supportable opinion, but my impression is that it is the result of gripping with something like vicegrips to hold the gonjo in correct alignment while fitting a new key --- or maybe just aralditing.

29th June 2010, 06:09 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	It seems, buntut of gonjo is broken where the third hole was situated (or fourth, if there should be one on sirah cecak side).

30th June 2010, 09:20 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	I'm not infrequently wrong too, Willem --- even though I've been playing with keris for just about 55 years now.