Garuda Kris

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?

I agree David. However, function can have some elegance to it.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gents.

I can appreciate this given space between 4 fingers, and be swayed to consider this but when you consider examples such as this;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=13

There is no practical application like grip enhancement?

And this one in Kino's collection, does the odd spacing really provide that much of a better grip when the hooked pommel provides just as much?

Idle thoughts thrown out for discussion.....

[Gavin Nugent]

So, a long long road digging, looking, reading, speaking with others and today this presents whilst researching a Kampilan.... there mostly goes my Sulu origin thoughts about the hulu....

First, another old thread of Alberts unique Chevron Kris dressed in the same manner as the metal hilted one he has. LUCKY and diligent Chap!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang

Albert's other stunner

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661

Battara's Datu Piang Kris

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang

One Gustav discussed a while ago. One Chris had I believe.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

The golden one I was lucky enough to obtain.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=68

A photo of Datu Piang, from the University of WI I believe.
A couple of zoom details clearly showing his entourage both wearing and bearing Kris with this hilt type.

SO, with consideration to the Holstein Sulu example, and others of the similar type, found in other materials, provenanced to the Sulu and Sulu coastal areas of Borneo... what's the relationship regionally and historically.
I understand the Maguindanao people are spread far and wide. It is the common thread of timeline of this design influence that intrigues me.

PS, THAT whalebone Kampilan and the stunning scabbard with carry handle may need it's own thread! Simply stunning....

[Ian]

Gavin,

I think the gentleman front and center in your picture is Datu Ali (genuine Maguindanao royalty), while Piang was a commoner (albeit very powerful). In which case, most of the retinue probably belong to Ali. Technically, Piang was subordinate to Ali (hence Ali in the center of this picture). I recall reading somewhere (maybe 20 years ago) that the Maguindanao Sultanate was closely linked to the Brunei Sultanate in the late 19th/early 20th C..

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Gavin,

I think the gentleman front and center in your picture is Datu Ali (genuine Maguindanao royalty), while Piang was a commoner (albeit very powerful). In which case, most of the retinue probably belong to Ali.

Ok Ian.

Ali dies before this photo was taken.

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpress...&brand=ucpress

https://maguindanaopride.wordpress.com/tag/datu/

Certainly looks like Datu Piang to me.

One of his known personal Kris is also being carried in the image.

The sheer depth and breadth of trade Datu Piang conducted throughout the the entire Sulu via trade merchants was vast... recent reading about the power and influence, tied with maritime entities and loyalties he had, could very well explain why these hulu are found as far and wide as they are.

[David]

I have to agree with Gavin on this one Ian. That does not look like Datu Ali (see pic below) in the center and since he had been dead for 9 years when that photo was apparently taken (1914) it couldn't be him.
BTW, that looks like an entourage not to be trifled with.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Ok Ian.

Ali dies before this photo was taken.

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpress...&brand=ucpress

https://maguindanaopride.wordpress.com/tag/datu/

Certainly looks like Datu Piang to me.

One of his known personal Kris is also being carried in the image.

The sheer depth and breadth of trade Datu Piang conducted throughout the the entire Sulu via trade merchants was vast... recent reading about the power and influence, tied with maritime entities and loyalties he had, could very well explain why these hulu are found as far and wide as they are.

Thanks Gavin. I guess the date of death eliminates Ali. Datu Piang is certainly present, standing on the right of the central figure. These pictures were often carefully staged, with the most locally important person in the middle. I will need to go back and look at my Datu pics from that era. Ali and Piang were raised together in the Sultan's household.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks Gavin. I guess the date of death eliminates Ali. Datu Piang is certainly present, standing on the right of the central figure. These pictures were often carefully staged, with the most locally important person in the middle. I will need to go back and look at my Datu pics from that era. Ali and Piang were raised together in the Sultan's household.

It will be interesting to see what you turn up there Ian.

I've some speculation about the young figures front and centre.

Datu Piang had many children to many wives. Data I suspect can be inaccurate, but within reason. I read that he had 19 wives & 34 children, although only a few reached any prominence.

Those young men front and centre could be family, as was the norm within Datu circles to appoint family, and provide with rank and title.

Given that the youth to the left, within the photo above, carries a kris with same hulu design as the Kris being carried by the sword bearer, I suspect he is very close to Datu Piang.

When I look at one of the better known image of Datu Piang from 1899, and the young boys brought forth for the photo, clothed as Datu Piang is, and a third child behind Datu Piang, it could be these two boys later in life who are pictured in the group. The gent to the far right could be Datu Piang's Pandita???