Another Tulwar for Comments

Stan S. · 27th November 2011, 07:42 PM

Appears to be very old and has some interesting features:

-The blade has chiseld floral designs on both sides. One is at the ricasso, the other is at the base of the false edge (strange place to put a "cartouche" don't you think?). These are clearly done over cold steel after the blade was forged and could have been added much later. You can clearly see the artsist's hand in these - he may have gone off in one as it does not properly line up with the shape of the blade
- The hilt has thin slightly downcurved quillons. It is also lacking a sun/flower element usually seen on tulwar hilts. Instead, there is a deep dome in a slightly cupped pommel. This dome reminds me of a pulowar hilt
- The scabbard is pretty bizarre. Instead of being covered in fabric or tooled leather as expected from a tulwar scabbard, it looks to be covered with crude raw hide. In all of my years of collectinig Indo persian stuff I have never seen this. The stitching is rough and uneven, and there are still hairs visible in places, although overall leather is very worn and looks like an old parchment. My knowledge of animal furs is non-existant but I would guess some type of a hooved hebivore, a goat, deer, donkey, or even a horse. Another interesting feature of the scabbard is that if worn in a traditional fashion on a left hip, it is flat on the outside but quite concave on the side facing the body (where the stitches are).
- Overall the sword is very light and well balanced. The blade appears to be made of good non-wootz steel

Not really asking any questions but any and all comments are welcome as always

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd December 2011, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Appears to be very old and has some interesting features:

-The blade has chiseld floral designs on both sides. One is at the ricasso, the other is at the base of the false edge (strange place to put a "cartouche" don't you think?). These are clearly done over cold steel after the blade was forged and could have been added much later. You can clearly see the artsist's hand in these - he may have gone off in one as it does not properly line up with the shape of the blade
- The hilt has thin slightly downcurved quillons. It is also lacking a sun/flower element usually seen on tulwar hilts. Instead, there is a deep dome in a slightly cupped pommel. This dome reminds me of a pulowar hilt
- The scabbard is pretty bizarre. Instead of being covered in fabric or tooled leather as expected from a tulwar scabbard, it looks to be covered with crude raw hide. In all of my years of collectinig Indo persian stuff I have never seen this. The stitching is rough and uneven, and there are still hairs visible in places, although overall leather is very worn and looks like an old parchment. My knowledge of animal furs is non-existant but I would guess some type of a hooved hebivore, a goat, deer, donkey, or even a horse. Another interesting feature of the scabbard is that if worn in a traditional fashion on a left hip, it is flat on the outside but quite concave on the side facing the body (where the stitches are).
- Overall the sword is very light and well balanced. The blade appears to be made of good non-wootz steel

Not really asking any questions but any and all comments are welcome as always

Salaams Stan S, It appears to be a Pulouar made in Afganistan. My suspicion is it has been set up for the tourist market as the chased decoration looks hastily done .. There appears to be not a lot of wear in the blade edge and I wonder if this has been chucked the earth for a few months to age it ? Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

AJ1356 · 2nd December 2011, 08:59 AM

This is not Afghani, it is Indian. The engraving dose not look to be new, but then again the pics are not of great quality. This has all the characteristics of a so called Tulwar. I'm thinking this is either a poor mans fighting blade or as stated above a tourist piece.

A.alnakkas · 2nd December 2011, 09:53 AM

Why is this suggested to be a tourist piece? while I cannot make any conclusions about the blade, the hilt looks authentic and steel.

AJ1356 · 2nd December 2011, 12:46 PM

I'd think because of the engravings, but then again it could have been a poor mans balde that was later engraved to make it sell better. all ofcourse are speculations from viewing the pictures.

Stan S. · 2nd December 2011, 04:18 PM

While I am usually eager to acknowledge that some of the pieces in my collection are contemporary replicas, with all due respect I have to disagree with your assessment of this being a tourist item. It is true that the chasing could very well be of a later date (as indicated in my original post). However, chased areas appear to be patinated uniformly with the rest of the blade, which leads me to believe that it was done when the sword was still intended for its original purpose. The blade overall is quite worn. There are not too many nicks but it was clearly sharpenned and re-sharpenned many times over. And most steel loss associated with sharpenning corresponds with the so called "sweet spot". Ofcourse this could be an indication of the previous owner's kids using it to whack bushes in the backyard but that we will never know

Comparing to other swords I have handled or owned, this tulwar is one of the older ones. If I could venture a guess, I would say 18th to early 19th century but it could be much older. The overall form and some peculiarities (i. e. animal hide on the scabbard) point at the Indian northern frontier/Afganistan border as being the origin but this is just my speculation.

In conclusion, I will say that I can see how pictures taken with an iPhone make it difficult to see many features of the item in question. I will try to take some better pics with my DSLR camera over the weekend and will add them to this thread for further review.

Thank you all,

Stan

Atlantia · 2nd December 2011, 05:44 PM

Hi Stan,

I think this looks like a good thing.
I'd say from looking at the pictures that it looks like a reasonable quality, genuine weapon.
I don't think tourist at all when I look at it TBH.
I wouldn't say 'Knightly' quality, but general 'soldier' for sure.
And I like the engraving!
Run your fingers over it, if it's new there will be sharp/sharper edges that won't be in keeping with the wear on the rest of the blade.
But it doesn't immediately ring any warning bells with me.

The scabbard with it's rawhide covering drags it down a bit, but at least it's got a scabbard and the sword is nice!

As has been said, it's a Tulwar not a Pulowar. I agree with your age range, later 18th/Early 19thC.

More pics!!

Best
Gene

P.S. I've got Tulwars that I don't display due to lack of space, but I'd find room for that one. I rate it.

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2011, 07:07 PM

Actually there are a number of terms and applications here which seem to misconstrue the actual character of this sword. With ethnographic weapons often strict classifications are patently impossible if not unlikely especially when it comes to terminology and terms often used by collectors and dealers. The unfortunate term 'tourist piece' is often overused and misplaced. The fact that many lesser grade weapons which were actually in some degree of use tribally in many regions were acquired as souveniers can often suggest intentionally commercial make.

The term paluoar, like tulwar, is simply a descriptive term in Afghan and Hindu languages, respectively and does not necessarily constitute an actual weapon type classification except of course in collectors parlance.

The term 'Afghan' as far as classifying this sabre does not necessarily serve well either, as 'Afghanistan' was not recognized geographically as such officially until the Treaty of Rawalpindi in 1919. While of course the term was used in many instances, the regions, especially to the south, were essentially India including bordering Sind and Punjab. Afghanistan was essentially also the land of the Pathans, who were thoroughly present throughout areas of India with continual movement in these directions.

The centrally positioned device in the chowk, in an otherwise notably Indo-Persian 'tulwar' style hilt as collectively known in collectors circles, seems to correspond to numerous examples we have discussed and which were held to be from either Afghan or Northwest Frontier regions. In many cases the scabbards such as seen with openwork mounts held to be of Afghan style similar to that found on many Khyber knives and 'paluoar' type sabres seemed to support that attribution.

The blade, though the 'ricasso' is mentioned, seems that it may have been a British product intended to equip native cavalry units during the Raj, and I have the impression the irregular corrosion in patches could suggest wear spots in galvanized steel. This process was patented from a French patent by Robert Mole & Sons in 1860, and this firm was of course a supplier to India Stores contractually with Wilkinson Sword Co. in the latter 19th. While they had the patent though, most of the blades I have seen by Mole were of regularly forged steel without this process. This may be of course a case of commercial deviation as there are many.

The engraving, as well observed, is a much later addition to the blade, and apparantly carried out by a less skilled, probably tribally in frontier regions, to dress a blade in accord with probably finer example swords of officers. These efforts, much as with the thuluth inscriptions etched on blades in the Sudan, were to appeal to tribesmen who were still using these weapons in these regions in the 20th century. These remote areas actually do not see that many tourists I would imagine, and the rugged scabbard suggests actual use as well as the scribe work of the motif....one off rather than commercial.

Just my thoughts, interesting sabre, which I would term a sabre, probably Pathan use with tulwar style hilt of northwest India/Afghan border regions.
The blade probably a British commercial product latter 19th century and remounted and decorated by a tribal armourer.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd December 2011, 07:05 AM

Salaams,

No offence intended on my suspicion of it being a tourist item~ I handled lots of swords in Afghanistan earlier in the year and many were reworked blades shall we say with a "hot needle" i.e. less than expertly chased and placed on blades to enhance their saleability. I spent a lot of time with a sword and blade workshops and witnessed reworked and totally new blades being aged. I was able to see excellent koftiari being applied and compared those with the not so well made articles in many parts of the Chicken Street Bazaar in Kabul. Once applied to a blade it is a very easy process to make the whole thing look authentic and old ... however I am not saying it is all new but that it is merely "suspicious" ... It could be that the hilt is older... It could be that the blade is older. What is certain is that the chasing is relatively recent and rather below par, off line, and that always rings a bell to me particularly in Afghanistan where there is a complete industry built around knocking out fakes. I have to add that Tulvar swords are not my domain and I learn a lot from this forums expertise.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

27th November 2011, 07:42 PM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Another Tulwar for Comments Appears to be very old and has some interesting features: -The blade has chiseld floral designs on both sides. One is at the ricasso, the other is at the base of the false edge (strange place to put a "cartouche" don't you think?). These are clearly done over cold steel after the blade was forged and could have been added much later. You can clearly see the artsist's hand in these - he may have gone off in one as it does not properly line up with the shape of the blade - The hilt has thin slightly downcurved quillons. It is also lacking a sun/flower element usually seen on tulwar hilts. Instead, there is a deep dome in a slightly cupped pommel. This dome reminds me of a pulowar hilt - The scabbard is pretty bizarre. Instead of being covered in fabric or tooled leather as expected from a tulwar scabbard, it looks to be covered with crude raw hide. In all of my years of collectinig Indo persian stuff I have never seen this. The stitching is rough and uneven, and there are still hairs visible in places, although overall leather is very worn and looks like an old parchment. My knowledge of animal furs is non-existant but I would guess some type of a hooved hebivore, a goat, deer, donkey, or even a horse. Another interesting feature of the scabbard is that if worn in a traditional fashion on a left hip, it is flat on the outside but quite concave on the side facing the body (where the stitches are). - Overall the sword is very light and well balanced. The blade appears to be made of good non-wootz steel Not really asking any questions but any and all comments are welcome as always Attached Images

2nd December 2011, 08:59 AM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	This is not Afghani, it is Indian. The engraving dose not look to be new, but then again the pics are not of great quality. This has all the characteristics of a so called Tulwar. I'm thinking this is either a poor mans fighting blade or as stated above a tourist piece.

2nd December 2011, 09:53 AM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Why is this suggested to be a tourist piece? while I cannot make any conclusions about the blade, the hilt looks authentic and steel.

2nd December 2011, 12:46 PM	#5
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I'd think because of the engravings, but then again it could have been a poor mans balde that was later engraved to make it sell better. all ofcourse are speculations from viewing the pictures.

2nd December 2011, 04:18 PM	#6
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	While I am usually eager to acknowledge that some of the pieces in my collection are contemporary replicas, with all due respect I have to disagree with your assessment of this being a tourist item. It is true that the chasing could very well be of a later date (as indicated in my original post). However, chased areas appear to be patinated uniformly with the rest of the blade, which leads me to believe that it was done when the sword was still intended for its original purpose. The blade overall is quite worn. There are not too many nicks but it was clearly sharpenned and re-sharpenned many times over. And most steel loss associated with sharpenning corresponds with the so called "sweet spot". Ofcourse this could be an indication of the previous owner's kids using it to whack bushes in the backyard but that we will never know Comparing to other swords I have handled or owned, this tulwar is one of the older ones. If I could venture a guess, I would say 18th to early 19th century but it could be much older. The overall form and some peculiarities (i. e. animal hide on the scabbard) point at the Indian northern frontier/Afganistan border as being the origin but this is just my speculation. In conclusion, I will say that I can see how pictures taken with an iPhone make it difficult to see many features of the item in question. I will try to take some better pics with my DSLR camera over the weekend and will add them to this thread for further review. Thank you all, Stan

2nd December 2011, 05:44 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Stan, I think this looks like a good thing. I'd say from looking at the pictures that it looks like a reasonable quality, genuine weapon. I don't think tourist at all when I look at it TBH. I wouldn't say 'Knightly' quality, but general 'soldier' for sure. And I like the engraving! Run your fingers over it, if it's new there will be sharp/sharper edges that won't be in keeping with the wear on the rest of the blade. But it doesn't immediately ring any warning bells with me. The scabbard with it's rawhide covering drags it down a bit, but at least it's got a scabbard and the sword is nice! As has been said, it's a Tulwar not a Pulowar. I agree with your age range, later 18th/Early 19thC. More pics!! Best Gene P.S. I've got Tulwars that I don't display due to lack of space, but I'd find room for that one. I rate it.

2nd December 2011, 07:07 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,770	Actually there are a number of terms and applications here which seem to misconstrue the actual character of this sword. With ethnographic weapons often strict classifications are patently impossible if not unlikely especially when it comes to terminology and terms often used by collectors and dealers. The unfortunate term 'tourist piece' is often overused and misplaced. The fact that many lesser grade weapons which were actually in some degree of use tribally in many regions were acquired as souveniers can often suggest intentionally commercial make. The term paluoar, like tulwar, is simply a descriptive term in Afghan and Hindu languages, respectively and does not necessarily constitute an actual weapon type classification except of course in collectors parlance. The term 'Afghan' as far as classifying this sabre does not necessarily serve well either, as 'Afghanistan' was not recognized geographically as such officially until the Treaty of Rawalpindi in 1919. While of course the term was used in many instances, the regions, especially to the south, were essentially India including bordering Sind and Punjab. Afghanistan was essentially also the land of the Pathans, who were thoroughly present throughout areas of India with continual movement in these directions. The centrally positioned device in the chowk, in an otherwise notably Indo-Persian 'tulwar' style hilt as collectively known in collectors circles, seems to correspond to numerous examples we have discussed and which were held to be from either Afghan or Northwest Frontier regions. In many cases the scabbards such as seen with openwork mounts held to be of Afghan style similar to that found on many Khyber knives and 'paluoar' type sabres seemed to support that attribution. The blade, though the 'ricasso' is mentioned, seems that it may have been a British product intended to equip native cavalry units during the Raj, and I have the impression the irregular corrosion in patches could suggest wear spots in galvanized steel. This process was patented from a French patent by Robert Mole & Sons in 1860, and this firm was of course a supplier to India Stores contractually with Wilkinson Sword Co. in the latter 19th. While they had the patent though, most of the blades I have seen by Mole were of regularly forged steel without this process. This may be of course a case of commercial deviation as there are many. The engraving, as well observed, is a much later addition to the blade, and apparantly carried out by a less skilled, probably tribally in frontier regions, to dress a blade in accord with probably finer example swords of officers. These efforts, much as with the thuluth inscriptions etched on blades in the Sudan, were to appeal to tribesmen who were still using these weapons in these regions in the 20th century. These remote areas actually do not see that many tourists I would imagine, and the rugged scabbard suggests actual use as well as the scribe work of the motif....one off rather than commercial. Just my thoughts, interesting sabre, which I would term a sabre, probably Pathan use with tulwar style hilt of northwest India/Afghan border regions. The blade probably a British commercial product latter 19th century and remounted and decorated by a tribal armourer.

3rd December 2011, 07:05 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams, No offence intended on my suspicion of it being a tourist item~ I handled lots of swords in Afghanistan earlier in the year and many were reworked blades shall we say with a "hot needle" i.e. less than expertly chased and placed on blades to enhance their saleability. I spent a lot of time with a sword and blade workshops and witnessed reworked and totally new blades being aged. I was able to see excellent koftiari being applied and compared those with the not so well made articles in many parts of the Chicken Street Bazaar in Kabul. Once applied to a blade it is a very easy process to make the whole thing look authentic and old ... however I am not saying it is all new but that it is merely "suspicious" ... It could be that the hilt is older... It could be that the blade is older. What is certain is that the chasing is relatively recent and rather below par, off line, and that always rings a bell to me particularly in Afghanistan where there is a complete industry built around knocking out fakes. I have to add that Tulvar swords are not my domain and I learn a lot from this forums expertise. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.