Na-gin protector, is it Moro?

kino · 12th January 2009, 05:28 AM

My new addition.
In A. Van Z's book, page 51, he states that it's of European origin and made of brass. My example seems to be made of copper with brass trimmings. Were these made in Europe or is this a copy of Euro helmets. The previous owner
obtained it 25 yrs., ago with a Moro horn armor. Was this helmet procured by a Moro thru a trade with someone from Sulawesi or did someone from Sulawesi get the armor from a Moro. Did not get the armor, long gone.

Your thoughts?

Battara · 13th January 2009, 03:29 AM

This does look Moro - notice the 3 little holders at the front of the helmet to hold flora. Perhaps Moro adapted of not made?

VANDOO · 13th January 2009, 05:02 AM

IT IS PROBABLY SOMETHING MADE FOR WEAR IN PROCESSIONS ALONG WITH THE ARMOR ,WEAPONS ECT. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY WOULD BE MADE FOR USE IN A MOVIE. IT IS DEFINITELY NOT A REAL SPANISH HELMET MADE FOR WAR AND CAPTURED BY THE MORO IN BATTLE. A REAL ONE WOULD BE MADE OF HEAVY STEEL NOT COPPER OR BRASS , I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME PROCESSIONS OR CELEBRATIONS IN THE PHILIPPINES WHERE SUCH ITEMS WOULD BE USED AS THE OCCUPATION AND WARS WITH SPAIN WAS PART OF THEIR HISTORY. PERHAPS SOME OF OUR PHILIPPINE MEMBERS CAN GIVE MORE INFORMED INFORMATION.
IF IT IS INDEED ONE THAT WAS USED IN SUCH PROCESSIONS AND EVENTS IT WOULD BE RARE BUT NOT AS RARE AS A OLD HELMET CAPTURED IN BATTLE FROM THE SPANISH. ETHINOGRAPHIC AND A NICE ITEM EITHER WAY

kino · 13th January 2009, 01:39 PM

I have had a little chance to do some searching. I don't think this is Moro. The Moro helmets are of a different shape. See photos.

Vandoo, I don't think that this was made for processions. It's too well made. It has a lot of detail work. I have seen some procession helmets in the Philippines. Back then they were made of tin.

Could this be a Dutch helmet or a copy of??

Maurice · 13th January 2009, 02:12 PM

I remember Arjan had a moluccan helmet for sale on his website not long ago.

(if the Moluccans got those helmets from the Dutch??....I think so but am not for sure, it is out of my field).

Anyway, as far as I can remember it looked the same in my mind as this one, and worth to search in that direction also to find the origin of the helmet.

Bill M · 13th January 2009, 03:44 PM

As far as the helmet, I don't think it is quite Moro either, though it has a strong resemblance. It does not have the detail that I have seen on early Moro helmets that were made for Moro use.

BTW the armor looks a bit familiar....

Atlantia · 13th January 2009, 10:51 PM

The helmet looks like an old costume piece to me. Or a 60s souvenier. I think Vandoo might be on the right track with theatrical.
When I was young (in the 70s) a huge local costume hire shop had some amazing outfits (lots of old genuine military stuff for hire, right back to the Boer war and Martini Henrys) Anyway, they had various thin brass/copper copies of helmets. Many styles right back to Corinthian and Roman. Construction was very similar to this one from memory. Pressed sections, turned lips etc.

Bill, the mail-coat is rather fine! Yours?

Bill M · 13th January 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Bill, the mail-coat is rather fine! Yours?

Yes, horn and silver

Rick · 13th January 2009, 11:52 PM

It seems to me that the Moro helmets tend to have combs like a morion; this example is more like a carabasset in form .

Kino, would it stand up to a good whack with a blade ?

Battara · 14th January 2009, 01:23 AM

I like the trade idea with some Moro customizing. Kino you are right in that the native Moro made pieces are different and more Spanish looking. Good pictures. I had forgotten those.

kino · 14th January 2009, 01:56 AM

Here are closeups of the helmet. The brim / lip is riveted to the dome, the distance from each rivet is 0.5 - 0.75" apart. The edge of the brim/lip is reinforced. The top of the dome is capped with a heavier gauge brass plate and topped with a solid brass finial.

Maurice, I recall seeing that helmet on Arjan's website. I searched his "item's sold" section, but was not able to locate it. I think there was also one for sale at Ashoka's at one time.

Rick, Copper / brass, a straight good whack maybe not, but I would say it would provide a good deflect.

Bill, your armor is a beauty.

The last photo of the helmet is from A. Van Z's book.

Atlantia · 14th January 2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Here are closeups of the helmet. The brim / lip is riveted to the dome, the distance from each rivet is 0.5 - 0.75" apart. The edge of the brim/lip is reinforced. The top of the dome is capped with a heavier gauge brass plate and topped with a solid brass finial.

Maurice, I recall seeing that helmet on Arjan's website. I searched his "item's sold" section, but was not able to locate it. I think there was also one for sale at Ashoka's at one time.

Rick, Copper / brass, a straight good whack maybe not, but I would say it would provide a good deflect.

Bill, your armor is a beauty.

The last photo of the helmet is from A. Van Z's book.

Well the close-ups show the quality of the construction. Its more complex than the simple pieces I mentioned.
Of course the fact that its near identical to the B/W shot is a clincher anyway! Good find!

Rick · 14th January 2009, 05:40 PM

Like peas in a pod .

kino · 17th January 2009, 03:37 AM

Here is an interesting photo.

"They where indeed from the Moluccas but also in use by the guards from the Sultan from Celebes.

The origin is still unknown till today but most likely they are copied after given or traded models from the 17th century."

Courtesy of Arjan, and Many thanks!

VVV · 18th January 2009, 04:41 PM

A collector friend of mine wrote an article in the Swedish (actually Scanian) Arms Collector Magazine about those, East Indonesian, helmets in February 1989. There were two major kinds; the heavier (about 2 kg) European kind made of iron and the lighter (about 1 kg) domestic kind made of thin brass.
According to his research they origin from the early contacts with the Portugese around 1550 in Ternate (West of Halmahera). The holes in the front are to attach bird feathers and the domestic helmets never had cushions as they wore them on top of headscarves. The helmets found in North Sulawesi were imported from Ternate around 1650 after a cultural exchange between the local chieftains and the sultan of Ternate, as well as the Dutch local governor. They were used as regalia carried by the local guards.

Michael

Sentrad · 16th October 2014, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

A collector friend of mine wrote an article in the Swedish (actually Scanian) Arms Collector Magazine about those, East Indonesian, helmets in February 1989. There were two major kinds; the heavier (about 2 kg) European kind made of iron and the lighter (about 1 kg) domestic kind made of thin brass.
According to his research they origin from the early contacts with the Portugese around 1550 in Ternate (West of Halmahera). The holes in the front are to attach bird feathers and the domestic helmets never had cushions as they wore them on top of headscarves. The helmets found in North Sulawesi were imported from Ternate around 1650 after a cultural exchange between the local chieftains and the sultan of Ternate, as well as the Dutch local governor. They were used as regalia carried by the local guards.

Michael

Michael,
any chance of getting the bibliographical data of this article? Or even to get a copy? I'm intested in all kinds of literature of Moro armour.
Thanks a lot

Udo

12th January 2009, 05:28 AM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 972	Na-gin protector, is it Moro? My new addition. In A. Van Z's book, page 51, he states that it's of European origin and made of brass. My example seems to be made of copper with brass trimmings. Were these made in Europe or is this a copy of Euro helmets. The previous owner obtained it 25 yrs., ago with a Moro horn armor. Was this helmet procured by a Moro thru a trade with someone from Sulawesi or did someone from Sulawesi get the armor from a Moro. Did not get the armor, long gone. Your thoughts? Attached Images

13th January 2009, 01:39 PM	#4
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 972	I have had a little chance to do some searching. I don't think this is Moro. The Moro helmets are of a different shape. See photos. Vandoo, I don't think that this was made for processions. It's too well made. It has a lot of detail work. I have seen some procession helmets in the Philippines. Back then they were made of tin. Could this be a Dutch helmet or a copy of?? Attached Images

13th January 2009, 02:12 PM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,324	Moluccan helmet?? I remember Arjan had a moluccan helmet for sale on his website not long ago. (if the Moluccans got those helmets from the Dutch??....I think so but am not for sure, it is out of my field). Anyway, as far as I can remember it looked the same in my mind as this one, and worth to search in that direction also to find the origin of the helmet.

13th January 2009, 03:44 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	As far as the helmet, I don't think it is quite Moro either, though it has a strong resemblance. It does not have the detail that I have seen on early Moro helmets that were made for Moro use. BTW the armor looks a bit familiar.... Attached Images

14th January 2009, 01:56 AM	#11
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 972	Here are closeups of the helmet. The brim / lip is riveted to the dome, the distance from each rivet is 0.5 - 0.75" apart. The edge of the brim/lip is reinforced. The top of the dome is capped with a heavier gauge brass plate and topped with a solid brass finial. Maurice, I recall seeing that helmet on Arjan's website. I searched his "item's sold" section, but was not able to locate it. I think there was also one for sale at Ashoka's at one time. Rick, Copper / brass, a straight good whack maybe not, but I would say it would provide a good deflect. Bill, your armor is a beauty. The last photo of the helmet is from A. Van Z's book. Attached Images

13th January 2009, 03:29 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	This does look Moro - notice the 3 little holders at the front of the helmet to hold flora. Perhaps Moro adapted of not made?

13th January 2009, 05:02 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS PROBABLY SOMETHING MADE FOR WEAR IN PROCESSIONS ALONG WITH THE ARMOR ,WEAPONS ECT. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY WOULD BE MADE FOR USE IN A MOVIE. IT IS DEFINITELY NOT A REAL SPANISH HELMET MADE FOR WAR AND CAPTURED BY THE MORO IN BATTLE. A REAL ONE WOULD BE MADE OF HEAVY STEEL NOT COPPER OR BRASS , I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME PROCESSIONS OR CELEBRATIONS IN THE PHILIPPINES WHERE SUCH ITEMS WOULD BE USED AS THE OCCUPATION AND WARS WITH SPAIN WAS PART OF THEIR HISTORY. PERHAPS SOME OF OUR PHILIPPINE MEMBERS CAN GIVE MORE INFORMED INFORMATION. IF IT IS INDEED ONE THAT WAS USED IN SUCH PROCESSIONS AND EVENTS IT WOULD BE RARE BUT NOT AS RARE AS A OLD HELMET CAPTURED IN BATTLE FROM THE SPANISH. ETHINOGRAPHIC AND A NICE ITEM EITHER WAY

13th January 2009, 10:51 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The helmet looks like an old costume piece to me. Or a 60s souvenier. I think Vandoo might be on the right track with theatrical. When I was young (in the 70s) a huge local costume hire shop had some amazing outfits (lots of old genuine military stuff for hire, right back to the Boer war and Martini Henrys) Anyway, they had various thin brass/copper copies of helmets. Many styles right back to Corinthian and Roman. Construction was very similar to this one from memory. Pressed sections, turned lips etc. Bill, the mail-coat is rather fine! Yours?

13th January 2009, 11:52 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	It seems to me that the Moro helmets tend to have combs like a morion; this example is more like a carabasset in form . Kino, would it stand up to a good whack with a blade ?

14th January 2009, 01:23 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I like the trade idea with some Moro customizing. Kino you are right in that the native Moro made pieces are different and more Spanish looking. Good pictures. I had forgotten those.

14th January 2009, 05:40 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Like peas in a pod .

17th January 2009, 03:37 AM	#14
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 972	Here is an interesting photo. "They where indeed from the Moluccas but also in use by the guards from the Sultan from Celebes. The origin is still unknown till today but most likely they are copied after given or traded models from the 17th century." Courtesy of Arjan, and Many thanks! Attached Images

18th January 2009, 04:41 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	A collector friend of mine wrote an article in the Swedish (actually Scanian) Arms Collector Magazine about those, East Indonesian, helmets in February 1989. There were two major kinds; the heavier (about 2 kg) European kind made of iron and the lighter (about 1 kg) domestic kind made of thin brass. According to his research they origin from the early contacts with the Portugese around 1550 in Ternate (West of Halmahera). The holes in the front are to attach bird feathers and the domestic helmets never had cushions as they wore them on top of headscarves. The helmets found in North Sulawesi were imported from Ternate around 1650 after a cultural exchange between the local chieftains and the sultan of Ternate, as well as the Dutch local governor. They were used as regalia carried by the local guards. Michael Last edited by VVV; 18th January 2009 at 04:56 PM.