Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 20th December 2008, 08:50 AM   #1
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default Osprey series' color plates

Osprey's military history books have always occupied my bookshelf and my collection continues to grow.

While looking for Osprey's title on the Moro wars, I found these color plates (below) on the Internet, plus a lot more.

The other plates are to follow shortly, on this same thread.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:50 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 08:55 AM   #2
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Plates on the American Indians ...
Attached Images
  

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:35 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 08:57 AM   #3
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

More American Indians ...
Attached Images
    

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:36 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 08:59 AM   #4
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Last set for the American Indians ...
Attached Images
  

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:37 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:01 AM   #5
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Mongols ...
Attached Images
   
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:04 AM   #6
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Japanese & Chinese ...
Attached Images
     

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:58 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:08 AM   #7
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Indian/ Sikh ...
Attached Images
   

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:52 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:12 AM   #8
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Ancient Middle East (Assyrians) ...
Attached Images
 

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:40 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:16 AM   #9
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Ancient Middle East (Persians) ...
Attached Images
 

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:41 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:18 AM   #10
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Siege weapons ...
Attached Images
     

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:42 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:21 AM   #11
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Others (Africa, etc.) ...
Attached Images
  
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:24 AM   #12
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Armies of the Crusades ...
Attached Images
    
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:26 AM   #13
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Armies of the Crusades, continued ...
Attached Images
  

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:54 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:28 AM   #14
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Armies of Islam ...
Attached Images
     
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:31 AM   #15
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Armies of the Ottoman Turks ...
Attached Images
    

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:56 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:33 AM   #16
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Various (Arab legion, siege weapons, etc.) ...
Attached Images
   

Last edited by migueldiaz : 20th December 2008 at 10:57 PM.
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 09:37 AM   #17
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Gurkhas ...
Attached Images
 
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 11:02 AM   #18
Emanuel
Member
 
Emanuel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
Default

Great post Miguel! Nice representation of weapons. I can pick out a kris, barong, loads of tulwars, saifs, Mameluke sabres, yataghans, khanjars, tabars, and khukris.

It's too bad Osprey stuck with the myth of the black-clad "ninja" though. Some of the Islamic swords look a tad too western to me. I was also expecting to see Attila sporting a curved sabre instead of a straight sword. Nice books all in all, thanks for the link.

Emanuel
Emanuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 02:48 PM   #19
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

Hi All,

While I do love the Osprey series, and I do appreciate Miguel's efforts. On the other hand, I think we need to think about whether we want to post so much copyrighted material without attribution.

What's the dividing line? A lot of us (including myself) have posted pictures from other websites, and that's okay so far as I can tell. I, for one, wouldn't like to see an entire book posted, unless it was not copyrighted or if the copyright had lapsed. What's the acceptable middle ground?

My bias is towards paying authors and artists for their work, mostly so that they can afford to keep producing the art I enjoy. Since I enjoy the Osprey series artwork, I would argue that we should buy the books.

Fearn
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 03:22 PM   #20
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Interesting that he only depicted the Moro warrior as dead.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 04:16 PM   #21
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,766
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Hi All,

While I do love the Osprey series, and I do appreciate Miguel's efforts. On the other hand, I think we need to think about whether we want to post so much copyrighted material without attribution.

What's the dividing line? A lot of us (including myself) have posted pictures from other websites, and that's okay so far as I can tell. I, for one, wouldn't like to see an entire book posted, unless it was not copyrighted or if the copyright had lapsed. What's the acceptable middle ground?

My bias is towards paying authors and artists for their work, mostly so that they can afford to keep producing the art I enjoy. Since I enjoy the Osprey series artwork, I would argue that we should buy the books.

Fearn


While they are lovely ....
I think we should also consider the amount of limited server space that so many images take up .
This forum costs nothing to be a member; and is solely supported by private funds .
We are blessed .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 04:19 PM   #22
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,618
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Hi All,

While I do love the Osprey series, and I do appreciate Miguel's efforts. On the other hand, I think we need to think about whether we want to post so much copyrighted material without attribution.

What's the dividing line? A lot of us (including myself) have posted pictures from other websites, and that's okay so far as I can tell. I, for one, wouldn't like to see an entire book posted, unless it was not copyrighted or if the copyright had lapsed. What's the acceptable middle ground?

My bias is towards paying authors and artists for their work, mostly so that they can afford to keep producing the art I enjoy. Since I enjoy the Osprey series artwork, I would argue that we should buy the books.

Fearn




Well placed note Fearn, and while I also admire Miguel's well intended post here, I think that this may be construed as exceeding fair use. If it were a page of illustrations aligned with a discussion on a particular topic, and properly cited it would be within perameters. Attaching such volume of the corpus of Osprey material (which I'm amazed could be done like this) is colorful and enjoyable, but I think better served singularly with focus on one topic and discussion.

I agree, these books are magnificent and offer much broader attention to often extremely esoteric subjects in history in a wonderful benchmark fashion. I have often used them as a sort of visual overview when beginning research on a particular topic, following with more in depth study.

Miguel, thank you for your thoughtful sharing of these, but I think we should be mindful of the copyright issues and posting volume as well OK.

Best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 04:54 PM   #23
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Interesting that he only depicted the Moro warrior as dead.

Hi David, I agree. The other thing that needs verification is the caption in the book on that dead Moro -- the book says that Moro warriors "took drugs and work themselves into a fighting frenzy". I wonder if the Moro's Islam religion would actually allow them to take drugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolo
It's too bad Osprey stuck with the myth of the black-clad "ninja" though. Some of the Islamic swords look a tad too western to me. I was also expecting to see Attila sporting a curved sabre instead of a straight sword ...

Hello Emanuel. While the attention to details of the Osprey series is excellent, as you pointed out there can also be inaccuracies or at least questionable depictions. I guess that's the whole point of examining these images.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
What's the dividing line? A lot of us (including myself) have posted pictures from other websites, and that's okay so far as I can tell. I, for one, wouldn't like to see an entire book posted, unless it was not copyrighted or if the copyright had lapsed. What's the acceptable middle ground? ... I would argue that we should buy the books.

Hi Fearn At first blush you may find it strange, but I actually agree with all of the points you mentioned.

There is a simple fourfold test on whether the use of an original material falls under fair use or not. One version can be found here.

In summary, the use of copyrighted material falls under fair use if: (a) the original material is being used for commentary, analysis, etc.; (b) the content of the original work being quoted pertains more to factual info rather than original creative work; (c) the portion of the original work being used is just a small portion and it is not the heart of the original work; and (d) the use of the original work does not prejudice the original author commercially.

In general, I think all postings of quotes and pics here in the forum satisfy item "a" above. And said item "a" is in fact the key criterion in determining fair use.

Again in general, all postings of portions of original materials here in the forum pertain to factual matters (e.g., blade attributes, etc.), rather than to creative work, hence to me criterion "b" is satisfied as well.

As for the portion of the original work being used (item "c"), I think we all just post snippets of the original work. And we don't put in our posts the bulk or the entirety of somebody's work.

To be more specific, in the color plates posted here, we'll notice that some if not most pertain to just the cover of that specific title.

And even in the few cases above where there were several color plates posted from one particular title, I don't think the set of plates constitutes the substantive portion of that title.

For all of us who enjoy buying and collecting those Osprey titles (I myself have dozens), we certainly all appreciate that those color plates are just but a portion of the tons of info we get from those books.

Which leads us to the 4th and last consideration -- is the author or the publisher of the book being commercially prejudiced by the posting of portions of his/her work in the Internet?

My personal opinion on that 4th criterion as applied to the case at hand is that there is no harm being done. In fact those who have been made aware of how good the Osprey series is (by getting a preview of what's in a title) might actually be enticed to buy the book. And I sure hope he does, as he won't regret it.

But that's just my layman's interpretation of the application of the fair use principle in regard to the query.

So Fearn, I support fully all the points you've mentioned And I do believe that there's no conflict in the application of the fair use principle.

I'm sure we'd both like to hear from the others as well. We are all ears
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 06:48 PM   #24
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,245
Default

ON the dead Moro, I have his barong and armour, just missing the shield and helmet *sigh*
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 07:28 PM   #25
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,618
Default

Extremely well explained Miguel! and after reviewing what you have also very well presented, I think you are right in that there appear to be no direct instances of infringement. I am quite impressed actually with the detail in what you have said, and frankly seeing these makes me want to start ordering them !!!

I do think however, that it would be better to post each separately along with the opportunity to discuss along with them....maybe even have some actual weapons corresponding shown by those out there with focus on each subject. Looking at these all at once puts both my brain cells in overload!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 08:04 PM   #26
fearn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,247
Default

Hi Miguel,

That's reasonable. I looked over what you posted again, and I have to agree that your posting does fit the four rules of fair use. In an ideal world, it would be good to have a link to each book, but I think the Osprey Publishing link at the top is sufficient.

However, the fact that we're having a discussion about fair use on this thread, rather than on the pictures, makes Jim's point better than anything else. For me, this thread takes a while to load, simply because of the images uploaded. Effectively, the pictures are now bogging down the discussion, even though this was not your intention when you posted them. My fault, really.

Rick also raises a good point, about the limited bandwidth of the site.

F
fearn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 08:25 PM   #27
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,766
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Rick also raises a good point, about the limited bandwidth of the site. F


Absolutely Fearn,
Text takes up so little server space compared to images .
Server space is not infinite nor free .

R.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 11:06 PM   #28
migueldiaz
Member
 
migueldiaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
Default

Hi Jim, Fearn, & Rick,

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions! I truly appreciate it and will certainly heed your advice

By the way, I've removed I think almost half of the pics so that this page will not be a whale of a download ... Sorry about that folks
migueldiaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2008, 11:18 PM   #29
Gonzalo G
Member
 
Gonzalo G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Nothern Mexico
Posts: 458
Default

Is there any valid reference abbout Attila (or the huns) using curved sabres, instead of straight swords? I woul appreciate the information.
Regards

Gonzalo
Gonzalo G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2008, 02:38 PM   #30
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,618
Default

Gonzalo, thats an excellent question! While we have had discussions in the past on the development of the sabre, this would be a great opportunity to talk about the swords used by the Huns. I think it would a great topic on a thread of its own.


Very nicely done Miguel! Thank you for readjusting and categorizing these, now much more workable. It really is exciting to see these wonderful books, and it would be great to have the entire library (not likely though here in the RV !).

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:53 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.