A medieval hand cannon ... sturdy as can be

fernando · 18th February 2015, 03:58 PM

I have a dozen of these things in my collection; but never one so thich and heavy as this one.
With 29 cms length, this is not only the longest one i found but, with its rather thick walls (32 m/m muzzle with 9,5 cms diameter and 9 cms. tickness at bottom), it has a 'modest' 15 Kgs. weight.
With an octogonal section, we may place it as XIV century gothic style ... an assertion subject to correction.
Its forging is quite a crude one, with a rather irregular bottom; can't even stand upright.
I don't know what to say about that peripherical welding cord around the touchole. It may have been a way to prevent the ignition powder charge from spreading all over, assuming a very worn touchole area but, when this addition took place, i don't know. Maybe you guys have a knowledge on the welding (soldering) area an wish to comment about it.

.

Marcus den toom · 18th February 2015, 05:22 PM

Hi Nando,

In Michl's thread on the position of the touch hole (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18049 ) he states that the octagonal hand cannon barrels with broad and narrow flats are of the earliest type. Also the touch hole is quit small and has almost no bowl to it, so you gun could be even older, ranging from 1380s to 1400s.

Only that welding near the touch hole has to be a later adition... it looks to me like a modern (20th century) weld which has been corroded

A very nice piece, could you take a picture from the inside of the bore? And how far is the touch hole from the back of the barrel and how large is the touch hole?

edit: ps in this thread which was linked to the position of the touch hole thread is the mention of the alternating broad and narrow flats http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nd+cannon+1400 srry for that

fernando · 18th February 2015, 06:51 PM

Hi Marcus,
The distance between the touchole and the rear is practicaly the same as that from the bore bottom to such rear (9 cms.); only a couple milimeters difference.
Further down from the 'conical' entrance to the touchole and its 'eliptical' worn vent, there is a very regular 4,5 m/m orifice.
Always a problem to take pictures of a barrel bore ... at least for me

.

Marcus den toom · 18th February 2015, 07:03 PM

Hi Nando,

With these kinds of bores i always try to get a lightsource (sun/lamp) to shine directly into the bore and take a picture from some distance by zooming in.. the quality would however not be great but still well enough to see if the bore is smooth or irregular

I also want to add to my previous dating that i have no clue if the lenght would affect the age period.
In my recent findings from manuscripts i find that even 14th century barrels can be quit long, but this is a rather difficult thesis because of the lack of drawing things to actual scale in those times

fernando · 18th February 2015, 07:07 PM

The pictures above were taken (two) with a flash and (one) with a bore inspection lamp.
Concerning the welding cord, it is easy to judge that it was made in the 20th century ... easier than understanding why still in 20th century such 'modifications' needed to take place.

.

Ken Maddock · 18th February 2015, 07:31 PM

Hi all
I was researching welding for another project and was surprised by the following which I saved from a history of welding site,
The below patent is from 1886 so electric welding is older than you may think
Puts a few more years on to the repair, at least you are back to 19 th century
Regards
Ken

N. Benardos obtained Russian Patent (No. 11982) electric arc welding with carbon electrode called ""Elecktrogefest" or "Electrohephaestus". The methods of cutting and welding metals by the arc was termed "Electrohefest" in memory(sic) of Hephaestus, the ancient Greek god of Fire and Blacksmith work. (The Romans renamed Hephaestus to Vulcan and which is shown on the title page, giving instruction to the craftsmen forging metal.)
Benardos receives permission from the Russian Government to organize production in 1885 for "The production of this plant is based on welding and brazing by electricity and also producing devices for electrical illumination"

18th February 2015, 03:58 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	A medieval hand cannon ... sturdy as can be I have a dozen of these things in my collection; but never one so thich and heavy as this one. With 29 cms length, this is not only the longest one i found but, with its rather thick walls (32 m/m muzzle with 9,5 cms diameter and 9 cms. tickness at bottom), it has a 'modest' 15 Kgs. weight. With an octogonal section, we may place it as XIV century gothic style ... an assertion subject to correction. Its forging is quite a crude one, with a rather irregular bottom; can't even stand upright. I don't know what to say about that peripherical welding cord around the touchole. It may have been a way to prevent the ignition powder charge from spreading all over, assuming a very worn touchole area but, when this addition took place, i don't know. Maybe you guys have a knowledge on the welding (soldering) area an wish to comment about it. . Attached Images

18th February 2015, 05:22 PM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Hi Nando, In Michl's thread on the position of the touch hole (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18049 ) he states that the octagonal hand cannon barrels with broad and narrow flats are of the earliest type. Also the touch hole is quit small and has almost no bowl to it, so you gun could be even older, ranging from 1380s to 1400s. Only that welding near the touch hole has to be a later adition... it looks to me like a modern (20th century) weld which has been corroded A very nice piece, could you take a picture from the inside of the bore? And how far is the touch hole from the back of the barrel and how large is the touch hole? edit: ps in this thread which was linked to the position of the touch hole thread is the mention of the alternating broad and narrow flats http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nd+cannon+1400 srry for that Last edited by Marcus den toom; 18th February 2015 at 05:53 PM.

18th February 2015, 06:51 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Marcus, The distance between the touchole and the rear is practicaly the same as that from the bore bottom to such rear (9 cms.); only a couple milimeters difference. Further down from the 'conical' entrance to the touchole and its 'eliptical' worn vent, there is a very regular 4,5 m/m orifice. Always a problem to take pictures of a barrel bore ... at least for me . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 18th February 2015 at 07:04 PM.

18th February 2015, 07:07 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	The pictures above were taken (two) with a flash and (one) with a bore inspection lamp. Concerning the welding cord, it is easy to judge that it was made in the 20th century ... easier than understanding why still in 20th century such 'modifications' needed to take place. . Last edited by fernando; 3rd July 2022 at 02:26 PM. Reason: phrase correction

18th February 2015, 07:03 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Hi Nando, With these kinds of bores i always try to get a lightsource (sun/lamp) to shine directly into the bore and take a picture from some distance by zooming in.. the quality would however not be great but still well enough to see if the bore is smooth or irregular I also want to add to my previous dating that i have no clue if the lenght would affect the age period. In my recent findings from manuscripts i find that even 14th century barrels can be quit long, but this is a rather difficult thesis because of the lack of drawing things to actual scale in those times

18th February 2015, 07:31 PM	#6
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi all I was researching welding for another project and was surprised by the following which I saved from a history of welding site, The below patent is from 1886 so electric welding is older than you may think Puts a few more years on to the repair, at least you are back to 19 th century Regards Ken N. Benardos obtained Russian Patent (No. 11982) electric arc welding with carbon electrode called ""Elecktrogefest" or "Electrohephaestus". The methods of cutting and welding metals by the arc was termed "Electrohefest" in memory(sic) of Hephaestus, the ancient Greek god of Fire and Blacksmith work. (The Romans renamed Hephaestus to Vulcan and which is shown on the title page, giving instruction to the craftsmen forging metal.) Benardos receives permission from the Russian Government to organize production in 1885 for "The production of this plant is based on welding and brazing by electricity and also producing devices for electrical illumination"