How old is this Kaskara?

harrywagner · 6th October 2015, 11:05 PM

This Kaskara has what appear to be the makers mark (two crescent moons with faces) on both sides of the blade about midway down. This looks old to me. Maybe late 19th? I'm not the best at aging items so any help is much appreciated. Thanks!

Harry

Kubur · 7th October 2015, 07:54 AM

Hi Harry,
I have one like that from the 1970ties.
But yours shows three groves and copies of the half moon and it's a good sign because they tried to imitate old ones. So i think that yours is from the 1950ties. We have an expert on this forum called Steven. He will tell you more.
Best,
Kubur

harrywagner · 7th October 2015, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Harry,
I have one like that from the 1970ties.
But yours shows three groves and copies of the half moon and it's a good sign because they tried to imitate old ones. So i think that yours is from the 1950ties. We have an expert on this forum called Steven. He will tell you more.
Best,
Kubur

Thanks Kubur.

harrywagner · 7th October 2015, 02:42 PM

Hi Kubur,
This sword seems much older to me than mid 20th. I'm not disputing your estimate, just saying it seems older. I am terrible at aging items, but I will say that if this does date to mid 20th then it is likely a deliberate fake. I don't see how this much wear and tear happened naturally in so short a period of time, even given the harsh North African climate. And if it is a fake then it will be my second one in the last couple of years. It strikes me as odd since it was not a big ticket item. It is almost the equivalent of counterfeiting a $1 bill.

Many thanks for your help!

Harry

TVV · 7th October 2015, 05:46 PM

Harry,

I agree with Kubur here, these swords have been produced well into the last century. Edster has some first hand knowledge on the subject, and here is a great article by him:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/hunley/kassala.pdf

Sincerely,
Teodor

harrywagner · 7th October 2015, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Harry,

I agree with Kubur here, these swords have been produced well into the last century. Edster has some first hand knowledge on the subject, and here is a great article by him:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/hunley/kassala.pdf

Sincerely,
Teodor

Thanks Teodorf. That looks like a great read. I really thought this sword looked older. I made a similar mistake with another sword earlier this year. Hopefully this paper will give me clues as to what to look for next time. Thanks again!

Harry

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2015, 08:35 PM

As has been well noted, this appears to be an example of a 'kaskara' from the mid 20th century. I think the person Kubur mentions is Stephen Wood, who has posted interesting examples of these for discussion, but does not seem to have been around for some time. I avoid using the term 'expert' but I think others posting here shared some remarkable knowledge gained from their research . Ed is one with the brilliant paper he did (posted by Teodor) and another is Iain, whose research on North African swords holds many of the key advances in understanding of these in the past two decades.

Here I would point out how important it is to be more aware of the geopolitical circumstances in regions using these swords to better gain insight into probable period of use.

These mid 20th century examples are often termed 'Kasallawi' as that region in far eastern Sudan was where the industry of manufacturing kaskara was essentially 'retooled' just prior to WWII. From the time post Omdurman and just prior to WWI, sword making had all but ceased in Sudan. Obviously after the British occupation during the Condominium it would be unlikely that arms manufacture would prevail openly as insurgencies were potentially always nominally present.

By the 1960s it seems that Kasalla was producing kaskara which were mostly in the form of the Darfur type examples seen in the time of Ali Dinar (d.1916, and as described in Reed, JAAS, 1985). This example does not have the typically seen 'X' on the crossguard, though the quillons seem compellingly wide. The lozenge pattern in the grip, usually embossed silver is characteristic as is the thick disc pommel, the tufted tassle, and overall appearance seem characteristic to those provided for Hadendoa warriors still using these mostly ceremonially.
The triple fullers at center blade are of the well known form typically known to the west in Saharan regions as 'masri' (loosely from the east, i.e Egypt) and well established in the usually shorter blades of the Tuareg. Also the twin moons (termed dukari) characteristic of the Tuareg blades, here are quite degenerated, indicative of later duplication by Kasalla makers.
These ordinarily Hausa produced blades clearly were carried eastward in their features reproduced by Kasalla well into the 20th century.

I always hesitate to use the term 'tourist' or 'fake' as in ethnographic weapons these traditional items are often proudly worn as status symbols and accoutrements of distinction by these people . While often they may be 'purchased' by tourists as souveniers, they are still often produced faithfully to traditional standards despite commercialism always finding other options.

harrywagner · 7th October 2015, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I always hesitate to use the term 'tourist' or 'fake' as in ethnographic weapons these traditional items are often proudly worn as status symbols and accoutrements of distinction by these people . While often they may be 'purchased' by tourists as souveniers, they are still often produced faithfully to traditional standards despite commercialism always finding other options.

Thanks Jim. I call this one a fake only because I think it has been altered to look much older than it actually is. I don't see how 65 years of ceremonial use could do this. Well, maybe if part of your ceremony involved dragging it behind your car!

I share your appreciation of ethnographic weapons. I don't mind contemporary pieces. Age is not much of a consideration for me since the overall design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. I consider that a luxury.

Harry

Rick · 8th October 2015, 12:13 AM

I think that's honest wear and tear, Harry.
Let's figure it for 60 years old.

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2015, 12:20 AM

Thanks for the response Harry,
Well noted on contemporary items. While considerable wear is of course a factor in examining these weapons, their form and character of their elements must also be considered.

As always, it is impossible to fully qualify all possibilities of use and ownership of these weapons, and the mention of ceremonial use in the case of Hadendoa was of course incidental. I meant to imply that they were not necessarily intended for warfare.

These kaskara were also typically refurbished many times as they changed hands, so various alterations not surprising, and the quality of work may have been less than adequate in many cases. The conditions in which these might have been kept certainly could have bearing on their appearance.

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2015, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I think that's honest wear and tear, Harry.
Let's figure it for 60 years old.

Kinda like us huh Rick!!???

plus a few years, and we're still pretty solid.

harrywagner · 8th October 2015, 01:06 AM

Thanks everyone for the help and info. As a new collector I appreciate it very much.

Jim - thank you especially. this is excellent, and valuable, info I would probably never have discovered myself.

Beat up as it is I still like it. It has many interesting features that keep drawing me back for another look. The little half-moons for example. I'll keep it for now. It will find life much easier now after what it's been thru. No pun intended.

Cheers!
Harry

6th October 2015, 11:05 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	How old is this Kaskara? This Kaskara has what appear to be the makers mark (two crescent moons with faces) on both sides of the blade about midway down. This looks old to me. Maybe late 19th? I'm not the best at aging items so any help is much appreciated. Thanks! Harry Attached Images

7th October 2015, 02:42 PM	#4
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	A fake or just used and abused? Hi Kubur, This sword seems much older to me than mid 20th. I'm not disputing your estimate, just saying it seems older. I am terrible at aging items, but I will say that if this does date to mid 20th then it is likely a deliberate fake. I don't see how this much wear and tear happened naturally in so short a period of time, even given the harsh North African climate. And if it is a fake then it will be my second one in the last couple of years. It strikes me as odd since it was not a big ticket item. It is almost the equivalent of counterfeiting a $1 bill. Many thanks for your help! Harry

7th October 2015, 07:54 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Harry, I have one like that from the 1970ties. But yours shows three groves and copies of the half moon and it's a good sign because they tried to imitate old ones. So i think that yours is from the 1950ties. We have an expert on this forum called Steven. He will tell you more. Best, Kubur

7th October 2015, 05:46 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Harry, I agree with Kubur here, these swords have been produced well into the last century. Edster has some first hand knowledge on the subject, and here is a great article by him: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/hunley/kassala.pdf Sincerely, Teodor

7th October 2015, 08:35 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	As has been well noted, this appears to be an example of a 'kaskara' from the mid 20th century. I think the person Kubur mentions is Stephen Wood, who has posted interesting examples of these for discussion, but does not seem to have been around for some time. I avoid using the term 'expert' but I think others posting here shared some remarkable knowledge gained from their research . Ed is one with the brilliant paper he did (posted by Teodor) and another is Iain, whose research on North African swords holds many of the key advances in understanding of these in the past two decades. Here I would point out how important it is to be more aware of the geopolitical circumstances in regions using these swords to better gain insight into probable period of use. These mid 20th century examples are often termed 'Kasallawi' as that region in far eastern Sudan was where the industry of manufacturing kaskara was essentially 'retooled' just prior to WWII. From the time post Omdurman and just prior to WWI, sword making had all but ceased in Sudan. Obviously after the British occupation during the Condominium it would be unlikely that arms manufacture would prevail openly as insurgencies were potentially always nominally present. By the 1960s it seems that Kasalla was producing kaskara which were mostly in the form of the Darfur type examples seen in the time of Ali Dinar (d.1916, and as described in Reed, JAAS, 1985). This example does not have the typically seen 'X' on the crossguard, though the quillons seem compellingly wide. The lozenge pattern in the grip, usually embossed silver is characteristic as is the thick disc pommel, the tufted tassle, and overall appearance seem characteristic to those provided for Hadendoa warriors still using these mostly ceremonially. The triple fullers at center blade are of the well known form typically known to the west in Saharan regions as 'masri' (loosely from the east, i.e Egypt) and well established in the usually shorter blades of the Tuareg. Also the twin moons (termed dukari) characteristic of the Tuareg blades, here are quite degenerated, indicative of later duplication by Kasalla makers. These ordinarily Hausa produced blades clearly were carried eastward in their features reproduced by Kasalla well into the 20th century. I always hesitate to use the term 'tourist' or 'fake' as in ethnographic weapons these traditional items are often proudly worn as status symbols and accoutrements of distinction by these people . While often they may be 'purchased' by tourists as souveniers, they are still often produced faithfully to traditional standards despite commercialism always finding other options.

8th October 2015, 12:13 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I think that's honest wear and tear, Harry. Let's figure it for 60 years old.

8th October 2015, 12:20 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Thanks for the response Harry, Well noted on contemporary items. While considerable wear is of course a factor in examining these weapons, their form and character of their elements must also be considered. As always, it is impossible to fully qualify all possibilities of use and ownership of these weapons, and the mention of ceremonial use in the case of Hadendoa was of course incidental. I meant to imply that they were not necessarily intended for warfare. These kaskara were also typically refurbished many times as they changed hands, so various alterations not surprising, and the quality of work may have been less than adequate in many cases. The conditions in which these might have been kept certainly could have bearing on their appearance.

8th October 2015, 01:06 AM	#12
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks everyone for the help and info. As a new collector I appreciate it very much. Jim - thank you especially. this is excellent, and valuable, info I would probably never have discovered myself. Beat up as it is I still like it. It has many interesting features that keep drawing me back for another look. The little half-moons for example. I'll keep it for now. It will find life much easier now after what it's been thru. No pun intended. Cheers! Harry