Bhelhetah

Mercenary · 4th October 2015, 05:13 PM

I used to think that subj is wooden sword for fencing practices. But now I am confused...

Jens Nordlunde · 6th October 2015, 04:56 PM

I think you should have told the members, that the first picture you show is from Egerton's Indian and Oriental Armour plate I. From where is the second picture, and is there more text to it than can be seen in the picture?
Egerton says it is a sword, but does not specify what kind of sword. I have not yet looked in Ain-I-Akbari to see what is written there.
Maybe some of the mebmers can give a hint.
Jens

Mercenary · 6th October 2015, 05:25 PM

Jens, million thanks. I used to think that Indian weaponry and warfare are the most important and interesting things on the Earth and that everyone thinks the same ))
Of course the picture from Ain-i-Akbary show the piece that very similar to some wooden training swords. But in museum in Kota (as I remember) the piece called the same is steel sword. Unfortunately I could not understand if it have sheath and what kind of blade is inside.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th October 2015, 06:22 PM

You are very welcome :-).
Yes you are right, the Indian weapons are the most important to discuss :-).
From the drawing in Egerton it is hard to say if it is a wooden or a steel 'sword'. However, had it been a wooden one, I feel sure that he would have mentioned it - as he speaks about weapons - and not training weapons.
The second picture you show is a strange one. Egerton calls it a sword, but it seems to have a round 'blade' - more like a kind of maze.
I will have a look what I can find in my books.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 7th October 2015, 02:23 PM

I have been looking in my books but not found any other Bhelhetahs.
The hilt shown in Egerton's book, and the hilt on the one you show from the museum in Kota seems to be the same. Egerton does, however, write that it is a sword, and I cant imagine he would write so if the 'blade' was like a haft.
I cant explain this to you, and I have never seen such a weapon. Let's hope some of the members can help.
Jens

Mercenary · 7th October 2015, 08:09 PM

Many thanks.
Meanwhile I have translated "bhelhetah" as far as I can and I can explain that the blade of this "sword" is for stab as the koncerz (estoc)... And in the photo it is clearly seen.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th October 2015, 09:36 PM

It starts to get quite interesting.
The one which you saw in Kota - what would you say the measurers were?
I have a funny idea of what it could be - but every time I think of it I dismiss it.
About forty years ago I was in Istanbul at the army museum, and saw a special sword, but if these kind of swords were used at Akbar's time in India is more than questionalable.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 8th October 2015, 02:03 PM

For a moment I thought it could be a weapon like the attached on, which also have a round 'blade', but a very pointed tip.
It was used for stapping enemies laying on the ground, and is supposed to be able to penetrade mail armour.
The bhelhetah has a much shorter 'blade', and I dont know what kind of weapon it is.
The attached picture is from Anthony C. Tirri's book Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th October 2015, 01:43 PM

In G.N. Pant's book Indian Arms and Armour vol. II such a sword is shown and commended - see below. However, somewhere else in the book he mentions, that he had never seen such a sword, sso he was obviously not aware of the one you saw at the museum in Kota.

Mercenary · 10th October 2015, 02:21 PM

Thanks Jens!
But...
I appreciate the books of Dr.Pant but unfortunatly they are secondary to by Lord Egerton one. It is like as all Indians historians of 20-th century who have studeid history of Rajasthan simply repeated J.Tod which in turn recorded court tales of rajas ((

Jens Nordlunde · 10th October 2015, 02:32 PM

Yes you are right - I too take Pal with a grain of salt :-).
Jens

4th October 2015, 05:13 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Bhelhetah I used to think that subj is wooden sword for fencing practices. But now I am confused... Attached Images

8th October 2015, 02:03 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	For a moment I thought it could be a weapon like the attached on, which also have a round 'blade', but a very pointed tip. It was used for stapping enemies laying on the ground, and is supposed to be able to penetrade mail armour. The bhelhetah has a much shorter 'blade', and I dont know what kind of weapon it is. The attached picture is from Anthony C. Tirri's book Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul. Attached Images

10th October 2015, 01:43 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	In G.N. Pant's book Indian Arms and Armour vol. II such a sword is shown and commended - see below. However, somewhere else in the book he mentions, that he had never seen such a sword, sso he was obviously not aware of the one you saw at the museum in Kota. Attached Images

6th October 2015, 04:56 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I think you should have told the members, that the first picture you show is from Egerton's Indian and Oriental Armour plate I. From where is the second picture, and is there more text to it than can be seen in the picture? Egerton says it is a sword, but does not specify what kind of sword. I have not yet looked in Ain-I-Akbari to see what is written there. Maybe some of the mebmers can give a hint. Jens

6th October 2015, 05:25 PM	#3
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Jens, million thanks. I used to think that Indian weaponry and warfare are the most important and interesting things on the Earth and that everyone thinks the same )) Of course the picture from Ain-i-Akbary show the piece that very similar to some wooden training swords. But in museum in Kota (as I remember) the piece called the same is steel sword. Unfortunately I could not understand if it have sheath and what kind of blade is inside.

6th October 2015, 06:22 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	You are very welcome :-). Yes you are right, the Indian weapons are the most important to discuss :-). From the drawing in Egerton it is hard to say if it is a wooden or a steel 'sword'. However, had it been a wooden one, I feel sure that he would have mentioned it - as he speaks about weapons - and not training weapons. The second picture you show is a strange one. Egerton calls it a sword, but it seems to have a round 'blade' - more like a kind of maze. I will have a look what I can find in my books. Jens

7th October 2015, 02:23 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I have been looking in my books but not found any other Bhelhetahs. The hilt shown in Egerton's book, and the hilt on the one you show from the museum in Kota seems to be the same. Egerton does, however, write that it is a sword, and I cant imagine he would write so if the 'blade' was like a haft. I cant explain this to you, and I have never seen such a weapon. Let's hope some of the members can help. Jens

7th October 2015, 08:09 PM	#6
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Many thanks. Meanwhile I have translated "bhelhetah" as far as I can and I can explain that the blade of this "sword" is for stab as the koncerz (estoc)... And in the photo it is clearly seen.

7th October 2015, 09:36 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	It starts to get quite interesting. The one which you saw in Kota - what would you say the measurers were? I have a funny idea of what it could be - but every time I think of it I dismiss it. About forty years ago I was in Istanbul at the army museum, and saw a special sword, but if these kind of swords were used at Akbar's time in India is more than questionalable. Jens

10th October 2015, 02:21 PM	#10
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Thanks Jens! But... I appreciate the books of Dr.Pant but unfortunatly they are secondary to by Lord Egerton one. It is like as all Indians historians of 20-th century who have studeid history of Rajasthan simply repeated J.Tod which in turn recorded court tales of rajas ((

10th October 2015, 02:32 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes you are right - I too take Pal with a grain of salt :-). Jens