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Old 13th June 2020, 10:38 AM   #1
Cathey
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Default English Civil War Officer’s Carbine Cross Belt c1630

Hi Guys

We recently purchased a collection of English Civil War Armour and also on offer was a 17th century English Officer's Carbine Cross belt. I have never come across anything like this before, and I was wondering if anyone can give me more information about this item. It certainly has significant age to it, hard to beleive it has survived in this condition. It has the prince of Wales Feathers which apparently have been in use since the Black Prince Edward in 1330 and where in use during the Civil War. Apparently, it was only from the beginning of the 17th century that the badge become exclusively associated with the Prince of Wales. During the English Civil War, most coins minted by Charles I at his various provincial wartime mints carry the feathers.

Cheers Cathey and Rex
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Old 13th June 2020, 12:35 PM   #2
Fernando K
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Hello

Just an opinion. I am not familiar with these articles, but it seems to me that the metal part (the carabiner) is much more recent, and not from the 17th century. It is very elaborate

Affectionately
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Old 14th June 2020, 01:20 AM   #3
Cathey
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Default Carbine Shoulder Belt c1630

Hi Fernado,

My pictures make the clip newer than it does in the flesh. I have had a friend who works with metal examine the clip and he is certain it is of the period. Attached is a picture of the clip from BLACKMORE, David Arms & Armour of the English Civil Wars Pp 52, the only reference I have found so far.

Cheers Cathey
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Old 14th June 2020, 01:17 PM   #4
Fernando K
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Hello

Just to say that the photographs of Blackmore may have been taken with a more modern clip (MOSQUETON in Spanish) I still think that it is very elaborate, mechanically speaking. It's just a poor opinion

Affectionately
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Old 27th June 2020, 06:06 AM   #5
Tordenskiold1721
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I have seen a few Carabiner's and it looks as the real thing to me and based on the good photos I have no reason to believe otherwise.

My question, and it is not only a question as in a challenge or doubting the information given.

What makes this an English officers carbine Cross belt ?

I understand the belt was bought with English civil war items, is this the basis of identification ?
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Old 27th June 2020, 07:21 AM   #6
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The embroidered symbol is the Prince of Wales feathers, complete with his motto 'Ich Dien', which is a pretty good indication this is English
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drdavid
The embroidered symbol is the Prince of Wales feathers, complete with his motto 'Ich Dien', which is a pretty good indication this is English


Very nice and very rear. Congratulation !!
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:39 AM   #8
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What color would have been the cloth originally? Red?

I read from a XVIIth century military tract long ago (no idea which, possibly Crose or Basta), that carabin derived from calabrin, because the first units were raised from Calabria (habsburg army in the valois wars). No idea how reliable is that.
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Old 12th July 2020, 04:58 AM   #9
Cathey
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Default English Civil War Officer's Carbine Belt

Hi Guys

It is with great relief that I can now confirm that this item is authentic. I must thank Keith Dowen is Assistant Curator of Armour at the Royal Armouries in Leeds for authenticating this piece. I contacted Keith after reading his book Arms and Armour of the English Civil Wars. The belt's exact dating will require further reseach and on Keith's advice I have contacted the Victoria and Albert Museum textile department, however Covid-19 will impact on any response I am afraid.

What we can confirm is that it probably dates between 1620-1688. Aparently due to the addition of the Prince of Wales feathers badge it can only relate to two individuals: Charles Stuart who was Prince of Wales from 1638 to 1649 and James Francis Edward Stuart held the title from 1688 to 1701, although legally he ceased to be Prince of Wales later in 1688 when his father was deposed. It may, for example, have been made to celebrate the birth of James Edward Stuart in 1688.

Now all I have to do is wait, put the belt in a glass frame and find somewhere to display it.

Cheers Cathey and Rex
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Old 12th July 2020, 10:09 AM   #10
DavidIEvans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathey
Hi Fernado,

My pictures make the clip newer than it does in the flesh. I have had a friend who works with metal examine the clip and he is certain it is of the period. Attached is a picture of the clip from BLACKMORE, David Arms & Armour of the English Civil Wars Pp 52, the only reference I have found so far.

Cheers Cathey



This is one of the various pieces from the former Littlecote collection and now generally considered to be post Civil War, 1660-1690 ish
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Old 13th July 2020, 10:29 AM   #11
Richard G
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The problem here then is that through most of this period there was no Prince of Wales. Charles II reclaimed the Crown in 1660 but had no legitimate male heir, which is why his brother James II succeeded to the throne.
James II had no male heir until Jame Francis Edward Stuart (the 'Old Pretender') was born in 1685. In 1688 James II was deposed in favour of his daughter Mary and her husband, William of Orange, who had no children.
Charles II was declared Prince of Wales in about 1640 when he was 10, altho' never formally invested. Presumably from 1649 he regarded himself as King, rather than Prince. He was an active participant in the Civil War before fleeing to the continent in 1646.
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