Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 24th July 2012, 11:59 AM   #31
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Welcome to the forum Enibas
... and thanks for your interesting input .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2012, 01:24 PM   #32
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
THE GAURD IS FORMED WITH FINGER JOINTS AND A CLAW AT THE END. PERHAPS A DRAGON OR CHIMERAS CLAWS ARE REPRESENTED. VERY COOL DON'T SEE HOW I MISSED IT BEFORE.



Hi Barry,

I have sometimes seen those joints elaborated as actual human fingers on rapier hilts!

m

Last edited by Matchlock : 24th July 2012 at 07:14 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2012, 01:29 PM   #33
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sioume
Thanks Michael for explanations.
So how someone can recognize a blade made in Passau and one with a wolf mark on it on it?
What differentiates them?

Thank for helping
Best
Alain



Hi Alain,


As Ben has pointed out in the meantime - thanks, Ben, and welcome here - differentiating between original Passau wolves and their manifold copies is virtually impossible.
I guess that as time passed, some 500-400 years ago, less armories were ready to pay the considerably higher prices charged for 'real' Passau blades claimed to have been imported from that Lower Bavarian city.

It seems to have become generally accepted in weaponry that saying 'Passau wolf' implies 'Passau style wolf'; the same applies to 'Solingen' wolves.
For a couple of decades, this lead arms historians to call many of those wolves 'contemporary fakes'. I think that that the neutral term copy would be more appropriate as nothing like a copyright existed in those historical times.


Best,
m

Last edited by Matchlock : 24th July 2012 at 07:31 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2012, 11:23 AM   #34
pappa-karlo
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 15
Default 18 th century schiavona

I have Schiavone with unknown characters. Does anyone know what is it?
Attached Images
   
pappa-karlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th July 2012, 12:39 PM   #35
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Maybe upside down ?

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2012, 06:15 AM   #36
Enibas
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 13
Default Unkown master?

Hello Pappa-karlo,

just I saw your niece piece. Quite perfect hilt, nice pommel.

I guess, that the stamped letters are cyrillic.
We can find a sciavona, also younger type (18th century ) with "three ladders" in the Collection Carl Beck. Sursee (Swiss). There is the name "Sava" stamped in cyrillic letters into the hilt (http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe67.html). The author Boccia mentions five Sciavone with the lettering "Sava" in cyrillic. It is assumed that this is the name of the master, who built the hilts.
Thus, it could be here to be a master signature
In this case, would Pappa-Karlo's sciavona also a hint that not only o n e master in cyrillic letters signed. Certainly there were no Italians, signed in Cyrillic, but there were craftsmen from abroad. Perhaps these craftsmen came from the Balkans. The rich Venice undoubtedly attracted numerous artisans from abroad and also had the need.

May be someone in the forum who can translate this cyrillic letters?

Very unusually is the plate at the hilt.
I am sorry, I did not found a english term for "Stichblatt" . Never see before. But I've seen other modifications to sciavone. and do not rule out that the plate is mounted original. Thank your very much for showing, Pappa-Karlo!
Enibas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2012, 11:34 AM   #37
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,987
Default

Is this a schiavona variation? Just sold on e-bay for <$250 :-)
Attached Images
  
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2012, 12:59 PM   #38
pappa-karlo
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 15
Default

Thank you very much for your detailed response. It's very interesting. I think this should be name. I found the Serbian alphabet, but only a couple of letters are similar. Not easy question.
pappa-karlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2012, 12:59 PM   #39
Enibas
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 13
Default Naval sword

The pommel of course is the cat-head's-pommel we know from the sciavona.
Your sword is conform to a type of naval weapon which was used in 17th century by mercenaries of venice.
Typical is the cat-heads-pommel, the guard and a rather short blade.

So at first we have to define, what is a sciavona variation?
Which are characteristics of the sciavona? Most important characteristics of sciavona:
1)The cat-heads-pommel (iron, brass, rarely silver or other)
2) the blade must be fit for cut
3) a basket hilt

Do you agree?

My opinioin:
In remote sense can your sword be described as Sciavona variation (Pommel, blade). Presumably this was not a weapon used by dalmatian mercenaries, who were usually as foot-soldier in the service of Venice during the 17th/18th century, but startet their mercenary career as naval figthers during the Middle ages (Boccia). Probably there were dalmatians still in the navy around 1700 and used this type, but this is bold speculated.

I think, other figthers enjoyed sciavona variations - like us
Enibas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2012, 02:58 PM   #40
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Ben,

English auction catalogs use the expression shell-guard for the German word Stichblatt.
Durchbrochenes Stichblatt is pierced shell-guard.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th July 2012, 03:59 PM   #41
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Is this a schiavona variation?

Maybe a one only setup (composite), instead ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2012, 06:36 AM   #42
Enibas
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 13
Default Marriage?

Good morning to all.
Thank you for help with english term, Matchlock.

Fernando, of course the "naval sword" Ariel shows to us could be a composite one. The type is quickly done from old and new parts.
A final assessment of the authenticity by photo is not possible.

But the type (cat-head-pommel, shell, knuckleguard and short blade fit for cut) is not an individual case.
So I am going to view my images from the doge's palace, if there is the type in the this fantastic collection. If I find one or some, I will post it.
Enibas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2012, 01:09 PM   #43
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Default

the last exemple from ariel reply is a venetian naval sword called "Fanti del Mar" , it is a nice exemple but composite and a later exemple...
they was used by the venetian infantry troups called like the sword fanti del mar in italian , actually lagunari in Venice ( a modern military section ).

Here one of my differents exemples I had . This one with venetian arsenal mark.
Attached Images
    
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2012, 04:13 PM   #44
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Eco
Bravo, Lorenzo .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2012, 04:57 PM   #45
Enibas
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 13
Default All righty!

Now I do not have to look for an example.
Here it is!

Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous.

How long is it overall?
Enibas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2012, 05:26 PM   #46
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Default

some books exemple of schiavona's , fanti del mar , schiavonesca .
Attached Images
       
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th July 2012, 05:33 PM   #47
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Default

others .
Attached Images
  
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2012, 09:58 AM   #48
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enibas
Now I do not have to look for an example.
Here it is!
Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous.
How long is it overall?



Hello,
This exemple was 90 cm circa , but usualy they can be from 85 to 102 cm max the largest exemple I seen ... thank you
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2012, 08:53 PM   #49
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 739
Default Received from a 'lurker'

Received by e-mail from an unregistered reader:
Quote:
I was looking for Serbian/Slavic swords Sciavonas in general. And came across SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS discussion and saw member named Pappa Karlo has the sword with signature on it he can not figure out. It is older form of Serbian azbuka/alphabet it reads GRGUR. It is serbian form of name Gregory now days more common amongst Croats. Exsample Grgur Golubic Serbian nobleman or Grgur Ninski, Bishop of Nin Croatia.
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2012, 04:45 AM   #50
pappa-karlo
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 15
Default It is serbian form of name Gregory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Received by e-mail from an unregistered reader:


I'm impressed! Thank you very much for your help!
pappa-karlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2012, 09:03 PM   #51
aurelius56
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Maybe upside down ?

.


Hello, this is my very first post :-) Yes - this letters are so called Croatian Cyrilic used up to the end of XVIII cent. and it reads Grgur (Gregory). It is very common marking on 3-row late XVIII cent. schiavona hilts. This particullar schiavona is mounted with XVIII cent. Austrian pallosh blade - not uncommon at all.
Regards, Zlatko

Addition - you may find longer version of this inscription in E.Oakeshott: "European Weapons and Armour" page 189 fig. 87 - "Grgur majstor" - meaning Gregory artisan - indicating local hilt production in Dalmatia.

Last edited by aurelius56 : 8th October 2012 at 08:00 PM.
aurelius56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2012, 12:10 PM   #52
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Welcome to the forum Zlatko .
Interesting observation on the Croatian Cyrilic inscription.
Have you any swords you would like to show us ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2012, 02:49 PM   #53
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,310
Default

Hi Zlatko,
The script on this Austrian mounted Pala has so far eluded translation, maybe you recognise the form? Oh, and welcome to the Forum, the nicest bunch of "eccentrics" you'll ever meet.
Regards,
Norman.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Norman McCormick : 8th October 2012 at 05:19 PM.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2012, 07:34 PM   #54
aurelius56
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Welcome to the forum Zlatko .
Interesting observation on the Croatian Cyrilic inscription.
Have you any swords you would like to show us ?


Hi, yes I have several schiavonas in my collection.
For the start, here is the one with more elaborate hilt construction than usual
Early XVII cent, broad blade with short fuller, on both sides "marca di mosca" (Belluno?), iron pommel. Well proportioned and homogenuosus sword. Unfortunately previous owner used some acid to clean the sword :-(
Total length 105 cm; blade 90,5 cm; width 4,8 cm
Attached Images
   
aurelius56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2012, 08:53 PM   #55
aurelius56
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Zlatko,
The script on this Austrian mounted Pala has so far eluded translation, maybe you recognise the form? Oh, and welcome to the Forum, the nicest bunch of "eccentrics" you'll ever meet.
Regards,
Norman.


Hi Norman,
unfortunately I do not recognize this characters :-(
They might be some talismanic magical signs or Russian Cyrilic - sorry.
Regards, Zlatko
aurelius56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2012, 02:10 PM   #56
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,310
Default

Hi Zlatko,
Many thanks for taking the time to look.
My Regards,
Norman.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2012, 08:40 PM   #57
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Great sword Zlatko,
Thanks a lot for sharing.
Listen, why don't you open a thread/s to post your collection examples ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd November 2012, 04:11 PM   #58
theswordcollector
Member
 
theswordcollector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berlin
Posts: 48
Default A nice early Schiavone sword can anyone guess the smith, date, country?Thank you :-)

Hello fellow collectors can anyone ID this schiavone maker , date orgin country ? I see a running wolf with rose gold inlay reminance and the orb and cross has the same rose gold inlay. Can anyone shanre any information on this piece? The pommel is very nicely detailed also. Thank you :-)
Attached Images
      
theswordcollector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2012, 11:26 AM   #59
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,969
Default

Very nice. Early type. Anyone around to tell more about this piece ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2012, 08:33 PM   #60
theswordcollector
Member
 
theswordcollector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berlin
Posts: 48
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Very nice. Early type. Anyone around to tell more about this piece ?

Thank you for the comment :-)
theswordcollector is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:46 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.