My friends flea market Kris

FilAmfighter1 · 9th June 2011, 01:17 AM

My friend called and sent pictures, he found this Kris at Flea Market. Please help me ID it.

Rick · 9th June 2011, 02:49 AM

The scabbard style is Madura Gabilan .
The mendak is an inexpensive contemporary example .
I can't really speak to the 9 wave keris itself with any certainty, nor the handle .

I have seen the figure holding a flower before; not sure it's a Maduran pattern or not .

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2011, 02:56 AM

All Madura, recent.

Mendak might be made in Jogja.

rasdan · 9th June 2011, 05:11 AM

G'day Alan,

I have some questions. What makes the blade Madura and what can we say about the quality of the blade based on the limitations of the picture; say the shape of the kembang kacang, gandik and pamor formation i.e pamor can be said is positioned at the centre of the blade or not?

Is it possible that we compare the physical quality (not age) within the limitations of the pictures of the above keris with the one I attached here? (sorry, I forgot the source of this picture).

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2011, 11:28 AM

Rasdan, we need to distinguish between old Madura and recent Madura.

With Filam's keris, we are looking at recent Madura. I've seen a great many blades of this type and quality and for me, its more or less a matter of --- click! it fits the template in my mind. end of story. But even then, I have been wrong when doing this from a pic. I have no doubt that in the cases where I have been wrong, I would not have erred if the blade had been in my hand, but it wasn't, I was looking at internet photos.

However, for old Madura it is no different to deciding on a tangguh for Mataram or anything else. This page in my site gives a reasonable explanation of the indicators that we consider.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html

Probably about all that we can use from a photo is :- pawakan, gandik, point.

The point is long, ie, distance from last luk to point, the gandhik is steeply angled, the pawakan is stiff and too upright , straight awkward gonjo, rotan cross section.

Madura is one of the easier ones to do from a photo, because the gandhik is very steeply angled --- but sometimes its not, and then it becomes impossible to do a tangguh from a photo, you need to hold the blade.

I've said it time and time and time again:- you cannot do tangguh nor learn tangguh from photos and written explanations. Its a guessing game, and the only way to learn the rules of the game is to spend a lot of time with somebody who understands it perfectly and who has access to a lot of good quality keris.

There is no other way.

rasdan · 9th June 2011, 11:43 AM

Thanks for the explanation Alan.

Regarding quality.

For example, in the first keris, we can see that the pamor from the pucuk towards mid blade covers the the entire blade width, but towards the sorsoran, there's a section where the pamor does not cover the width evenly. Is this an acceptable feature for a good keris?

Within the limitations of the above photos, what can you say about the quality of the 2 keris we have in this thread (in terms of shape etc) ? Do you think the kembang kacang is properly shaped?

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2011, 02:01 PM

Rasdan, you are asking me to comment on quality of these keris on the basis of two photos that are less than good and in the incorrect orientation.

I am reluctant to comment on quality, and many other things about keris on the basis of very high quality photos.

Try to look at this from my perspective:- I'm looking at two keris here that from what I can see in these sub-standard photos are extremely ordinary keris. Even if I had these keris in my hand I would not bother to spend more than 5 seconds on either one in an assessment of quality. Now you ask me to make public comments that could offend the owners or influence the opinions of others --- and this on the basis of photos where I cannot really justify my opinion.

This exercise has the potential to make me look like an idiot.

I'm sorry, but I have no further comments to make on either of these keris.

However --- that lack of pamor near the sorsoran on keris #1 is not really acceptable.

rasdan · 9th June 2011, 02:40 PM

Yes Alan, you are right. I shouldn't ask you to comment on other people's keris. Sorry. On the other hand, thank you for the explanation about the pamor.

FilAmfighter1 · 9th June 2011, 04:47 PM

Guys thanks for examination of my friend blade. What kind of range is it worth?

David · 9th June 2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FilAmfighter1

Guys thanks for examination of my friend blade. What kind of range is it worth?

Please read the forum rules again....we do not allow monetary assessments on the forums...

asomotif · 9th June 2011, 11:11 PM

The scabbard look like it has some age. (imho)

A. G. Maisey · 10th June 2011, 12:30 AM

Rasdan, I could not understand why you raised the question of quality, and I've been thinking about this. Then I realised that I had written:-

I've seen a great many blades of this type and quality

I suspect that you understood my use of the word "quality" to mean that I considered this blade to be of quality. Not so. I did not use an adjective with the word "quality", because I do not like to be overtly offensive. I left it for others to decide exactly what level of quality I intended.

Sorry for creating this misunderstanding.

FilAmfighter1 · 10th June 2011, 04:11 AM

My budy said that he wants to swap in for Barong blade! that is why I was trying to find a range- sorry forgat that part of the rules, my bad!!! Thanks for the reminder!

rasdan · 10th June 2011, 05:43 AM

G'day Alan,

Actually I asked about quality because I thought the shape of the first keris looks nice, only the greneng is strange. The second keris to me is not so bad either; maybe not a masterpiece, and I was wondering if there is something we can say about it. Anyhow, no worries, I understand there's a lot of barriers in discussing keris online.

9th June 2011, 05:11 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	G'day Alan, I have some questions. What makes the blade Madura and what can we say about the quality of the blade based on the limitations of the picture; say the shape of the kembang kacang, gandik and pamor formation i.e pamor can be said is positioned at the centre of the blade or not? Is it possible that we compare the physical quality (not age) within the limitations of the pictures of the above keris with the one I attached here? (sorry, I forgot the source of this picture). Attached Images

9th June 2011, 04:47 PM	#9
FilAmfighter1 Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Torrance Posts: 49	Thanks for the reply Guys thanks for examination of my friend blade. What kind of range is it worth?

10th June 2011, 04:11 AM	#13
FilAmfighter1 Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Torrance Posts: 49	My friend wants to swap it now! My budy said that he wants to swap in for Barong blade! that is why I was trying to find a range- sorry forgat that part of the rules, my bad!!! Thanks for the reminder!

9th June 2011, 01:17 AM	#1
FilAmfighter1 Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Torrance Posts: 49	My friends flea market Kris My friend called and sent pictures, he found this Kris at Flea Market. Please help me ID it. Attached Images

9th June 2011, 02:49 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	The scabbard style is Madura Gabilan . The mendak is an inexpensive contemporary example . I can't really speak to the 9 wave keris itself with any certainty, nor the handle . I have seen the figure holding a flower before; not sure it's a Maduran pattern or not .

9th June 2011, 02:56 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	All Madura, recent. Mendak might be made in Jogja.

9th June 2011, 11:28 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Rasdan, we need to distinguish between old Madura and recent Madura. With Filam's keris, we are looking at recent Madura. I've seen a great many blades of this type and quality and for me, its more or less a matter of --- click! it fits the template in my mind. end of story. But even then, I have been wrong when doing this from a pic. I have no doubt that in the cases where I have been wrong, I would not have erred if the blade had been in my hand, but it wasn't, I was looking at internet photos. However, for old Madura it is no different to deciding on a tangguh for Mataram or anything else. This page in my site gives a reasonable explanation of the indicators that we consider. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html Probably about all that we can use from a photo is :- pawakan, gandik, point. The point is long, ie, distance from last luk to point, the gandhik is steeply angled, the pawakan is stiff and too upright , straight awkward gonjo, rotan cross section. Madura is one of the easier ones to do from a photo, because the gandhik is very steeply angled --- but sometimes its not, and then it becomes impossible to do a tangguh from a photo, you need to hold the blade. I've said it time and time and time again:- you cannot do tangguh nor learn tangguh from photos and written explanations. Its a guessing game, and the only way to learn the rules of the game is to spend a lot of time with somebody who understands it perfectly and who has access to a lot of good quality keris. There is no other way.

9th June 2011, 11:43 AM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	Thanks for the explanation Alan. Regarding quality. For example, in the first keris, we can see that the pamor from the pucuk towards mid blade covers the the entire blade width, but towards the sorsoran, there's a section where the pamor does not cover the width evenly. Is this an acceptable feature for a good keris? Within the limitations of the above photos, what can you say about the quality of the 2 keris we have in this thread (in terms of shape etc) ? Do you think the kembang kacang is properly shaped?

9th June 2011, 02:01 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Rasdan, you are asking me to comment on quality of these keris on the basis of two photos that are less than good and in the incorrect orientation. I am reluctant to comment on quality, and many other things about keris on the basis of very high quality photos. Try to look at this from my perspective:- I'm looking at two keris here that from what I can see in these sub-standard photos are extremely ordinary keris. Even if I had these keris in my hand I would not bother to spend more than 5 seconds on either one in an assessment of quality. Now you ask me to make public comments that could offend the owners or influence the opinions of others --- and this on the basis of photos where I cannot really justify my opinion. This exercise has the potential to make me look like an idiot. I'm sorry, but I have no further comments to make on either of these keris. However --- that lack of pamor near the sorsoran on keris #1 is not really acceptable.

9th June 2011, 02:40 PM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	Yes Alan, you are right. I shouldn't ask you to comment on other people's keris. Sorry. On the other hand, thank you for the explanation about the pamor.

9th June 2011, 11:11 PM	#11
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	The scabbard look like it has some age. (imho)

10th June 2011, 12:30 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Rasdan, I could not understand why you raised the question of quality, and I've been thinking about this. Then I realised that I had written:- I've seen a great many blades of this type and quality I suspect that you understood my use of the word "quality" to mean that I considered this blade to be of quality. Not so. I did not use an adjective with the word "quality", because I do not like to be overtly offensive. I left it for others to decide exactly what level of quality I intended. Sorry for creating this misunderstanding.

10th June 2011, 05:43 AM	#14
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	G'day Alan, Actually I asked about quality because I thought the shape of the first keris looks nice, only the greneng is strange. The second keris to me is not so bad either; maybe not a masterpiece, and I was wondering if there is something we can say about it. Anyhow, no worries, I understand there's a lot of barriers in discussing keris online.