Strange Yataghan

Valjhun · 2nd February 2006, 05:29 PM

Hi!

I've been offered that puppy and I don't actually know what it is. Seems a german reinterpretation of a turkish yataghan

The hilt is ivory? and the quillon section seems verry german to me or might be actually turkish simpler design of their WWI ordonance swords. The blade i verry plain and no decoration on it apparently. Is tat some sort of turkish ordonance short sword/dagger ith obvius simplified design?

ariel · 2nd February 2006, 06:28 PM

Looks almost like a hunting sword

Tim Simmons · 2nd February 2006, 07:02 PM

The guard has a Chinese look which I am not sure is quite right it just seems a little ill fitting. I am also suspicious about these file marks? Tim

Tim Simmons · 2nd February 2006, 07:18 PM

I am really sorry, I am hitting this pretty hard. The lanyard hole in the handle does not look as if it is through a tang, central to the blade or from the blades back. I am not sure the handles are blind like this on yataghan, if that is the correct terminology. Tim

Lew · 2nd February 2006, 07:28 PM

This looks like a composite sword to me? Yataghan blade with a European style hunting sword hilt.

Lew

Battara · 3rd February 2006, 07:37 PM

Yeah, I'm with you Louie on composite puppy.

ham · 3rd February 2006, 08:27 PM

It might be wise not to write this sword off too quickly as an assembled piece.
I recall there was a thread a few years back regarding the Pandors, in fact there was even a photo of one forumite dressed as one? They, among others, used such hybrid weapons-- or influenced them, in any case. There was endless warfare throughout the 17th and 18th century between the Turks and most of the Eastern European powers. This is probably a captured Ottoman blade fitted up for a German or Austrian. The bladeform is consistent with an earlier dating, and this type is also often pattern welded.
Though the grip is provincial relative to others I've seen, I will venture a guess in the latter 18th century. Someone who is more knowledgeable about this form of guard can probably place it within a decade or two.

Ham

not2sharp · 4th February 2006, 01:31 AM

It might be wise not to write this sword off too quickly as an assembled piece.

If it is an assembled peice, it looks like the work was done quite some time ago. It also looks as though the new handle failed in use. So whomever bought this thing intended it for more then a simple wall hanger.

n2s

Tim Simmons · 5th February 2006, 08:52 AM

I am with Battara on this one. I suspect this has been assembled fairly recently. I too feel the guard is Chinese and recent, just have a look at the guards on some of the Chinese offerings from ebay.

ham · 5th February 2006, 06:24 PM

"just have a look at the guards on some of the Chinese offerings from ebay" ?? Is this the new reference standard?! I think not.
Tell you what, gentlemen. If, after one of you bothers to look into how European hunting swords were hilted (in a book, not eBay please) you can confidently say the mounts are Chinese, Stout's all round on me.

Ham

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2006, 09:59 PM

I enthusiastically agree with Ham....ebay as reference resource...NOT!!!!

I also concur with Ham on his assessment noting the very plausible Pandour associations with this weapon, and I would consider this sword homogenous, although possibly taken apart in restoring or cleaning components.
The Pandours were essentially auxiliary units of the Austrian army during the reign of Maria Theresa, who very much influenced subsequent units that were added to the armies of several other European powers.
These swords were basically fighting variants of 'hunting' swords, or couteaux de chasse and these evolved from similar hunting or riding swords of the 17th century. The Pandour examples were of mid 18th century, and this example may be one of the form probably used by as a fighting sabre by European officer in one of the latter auxiliary units modeled on the Pandour regiments. An illustration of these Austrian Pandour attributed swords is found in "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" by I. Lebedynsky (p.69) and the deep bellied blade is virtually the same. While the decidedly oriental crossguard seems atypical, one of the key elements of the dress of these Pandour styled units was the fearsome appearance enhanced by varied and fearsome looking oriental garb, scalplocks and drooping mustaches etc.
It would not seem unusual that such a guard might have been added on one of these swords.

This example may be a yataghan type cavalry sabre of possibly Balkan or Austrian use from latter 18th to early 19th c.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 5th February 2006, 08:14 PM

No ebay is not the new bench mark. I still cannot see this as a genuine hunting weapon. In Europe hunting was and still is in many cases the preserve of the rich. This knife is not that. I prefer bitter it is sharper and lighter to taste. Tim

ham · 6th February 2006, 05:31 PM

Tim, before you sip that bitter have a look at this:
An early-mid 18th century German hunting sword fitted with a heavy double edged blade. Note the close similarity in the guard, also the one-piece grip.
There is another similar with a different form of blade ending on eBay shortly. When it does I will attach the link for further comparison.
Your observation regarding hunting and the aristocracy is a reasonable one. What it does not take into consideration is that though such swords began as hunting implements, they quickly became popular with officers and then, as is usually the case, with common soldiers as sidearms. Further, we are not seeing the sword above in its pristine state. The hilt parts are heavily worn-- note the corrosion on the ferrule. By contrast, the guard is bright. It has been cleaned over time, so that any embellishment which would originally have been found there is long gone.

Ham

Tim Simmons · 6th February 2006, 06:05 PM

That is very interesting Ham and I will agree that you have shown a similarity but just look how weak the handle of the one in discussion is, and then compere it to the one you have post. What do you make of the fresh file marks? Tim

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2006, 06:47 PM

The example Ham has posted presents interesting support for probable European provenance of the sword in discussion, very Oriental appearing guard as well recalling those of the Chinese jian. Trade with the Orient was well established in these times and Chinese weapons were keenly favored by aristocrats who proudly displayed them in thier estates.

These lighter and smaller swords known as hunting swords often served as 'riding swords' and sidearms favored by the gentry during the 17th century before the advent of the smallsword in Europe. They became well known as sidearms favored by officers, who of course were in effect members of the gentry as well. This was especially known among maritime figures, and the hangers of these forms became well known among naval officers, officers on trade vessels and the familiar examples seen carried by pirates. They of course served well in close quarters combat as aboard ships, and in other instances were comfortably worn in city wear and riding, as well as in many combat situations found good purpose during melee. Despite thier utilitarian associations, these hangers were effective sidearms for defense.

By the 18th century, hunting hangers had become well established among gentry, and often were produced as esteemed gifts and presentations in many situations. Their use as weapons is clearly shown in the Lebedynsky reference I have cited as well as many others, and larger more combat intended blades were indeed added for mounted use. Since regulation swords were not entirely in place as yet, especially for officers, who maintained free reign to carry sword styles either in vogue, heirloom or presented as they saw fit. The auxiliary forces of course carried whatever weapons they favored or had captured.

Best regards,
Jim

ham · 8th February 2006, 02:33 AM

Tim, what I have tried to show here is not that I dug up another sword with a similar guard-- that tends to leads to "the chicken or the egg" reasoning. Rather, I am trying to present the notion that one ought to search out and recognise formal groups, in this case guards, which tie together like examples.
Here is another of this type:

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-CONTINENTAL-...QQcmdZViewItem

Comparison leads to second deduction-- these similarly-hilted weapons share a spectrum of blade forms: we have one mounted as a yataghan, one symmetrical and another single-edged. This also supports a European origin for the sword under examination. The most general requirement I suppose is to broaden one's knowledge of forms as much as possible. Fortunately for most of us, it's a pleasure.

As for the scratches on the guard, I can barely make them out I'm afraid. However given the condition of the ferrule relative to the guard, I would suggest that the scratches are indicative of cleaning which was more enthusiastic than skilled. Finally, I don't seem to be able to find any Chinese swords in any of my references with guards that bear more than a vague similarity with that of the one under discussion. Can you provide an example please?

Ham

Jeff D · 8th February 2006, 03:34 AM

Oh boy I know I am gonna get it now, taking on both Jim and ham, But, this one smacks of a pieced together specimen. At minimum it has been heavily and poorly messed with. 1) I will start with the corrosion on the hilt lanyard rivet and ferrule are completely different than the guard and the blade. Accepted that the guard and blade have been heavily cleaned, but I would expect more pitting if it started the same. 2) the ferrule is broken, that is usually a sure sign that the hilt has been switched and did not fit correctly. 3) the ferrule does not fit the guard ie; it doesn't curve to conform to the curve of the back of the guard. is that a piece of leather in between? lastly and the weakest 4) the over all appearace is "off". Now I will brace my self for the replys

. As ham has stated this is a pleasure.

Jeff

Tim Simmons · 8th February 2006, 09:20 AM

Jeff, my thoughts exactly. The handle although ivory is so clumsy on this weapon especially as it is purporting to be a gentleman's accessory.

Sometimes you have to punch above your weight or it goes to the wrong guy.

wolviex · 8th February 2006, 09:27 AM

Dear All!
I'm happy to see discussion on this particular kind of hangers. I was always curious of this type because there are rarer and there is almost lack of any informations about them.
I haven't much time to watch discussion very carefuly, but if I understand well, we've got two problems.
First one is about genuineness of Valhjun's hanger. I'm not taking voice here about it, but I can say the hilt is quite poor. Such hilts were usually decored with engraving and repusee. But maybe such exceptions existed, though its out-of-style appearance is somehow strange.
But I will second ham's and Jim's thoughts about hangers. Such ones with "chinese" hilts existed, and were produced in Europe, probably in central Europe, and it was somehow connected to oriental fashion popular on courts. Below you'll find more examples. First and second one are from book "Hladno lovacko oruzje" by Dora Boskovic. First one was made by Clemens Weyersberg in Solingen, 1730-1740 y., second is dated on 18/19 c., so it's quite late. Other ones are examples from my museum, dated around 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 18th century. One is with yataghan blade, with etched inscription looked like pattern, other one is with badly damaged, broken blade, but you can see some magical signs in there, used mostly in Germany.
Regards!

Tim Simmons · 8th February 2006, 10:36 AM

Fantastic wolviex, this has been most informative and so far I still do not feel I have to eat all that I have said

. The one in question does not even look that old and as the pictures show the handle is stubby and not elegant. I do not think I have seen this Chinese style on British hunting hangers.

Radu Transylvanicus · 8th February 2006, 12:16 PM

My hat is off to you, Wolviex, I guess you solved this one, pan Michalko... I wouldve probably throw it as one of the Russian potentates hunting dagger, two-three centuries ago.

ham · 8th February 2006, 07:03 PM

Nicely done all. But who buys the beer?

Ham

Tim Simmons · 8th February 2006, 07:07 PM

Wolviex! I am drinking a very nice one right now called ZYWIEC 5.6% not bad for lager beer

.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th February 2006, 07:11 PM

Wolviex, thank you for an excelent lecture, and thank you for exelent pictures

.

Jens

2nd February 2006, 05:29 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Strange Yataghan Hi! I've been offered that puppy and I don't actually know what it is. Seems a german reinterpretation of a turkish yataghan The hilt is ivory? and the quillon section seems verry german to me or might be actually turkish simpler design of their WWI ordonance swords. The blade i verry plain and no decoration on it apparently. Is tat some sort of turkish ordonance short sword/dagger ith obvius simplified design? Attached Images Last edited by Valjhun; 2nd February 2006 at 06:24 PM.

2nd February 2006, 07:02 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The guard has a Chinese look which I am not sure is quite right it just seems a little ill fitting. I am also suspicious about these file marks? Tim Attached Images

5th February 2006, 08:14 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	No ebay is not the new bench mark. I still cannot see this as a genuine hunting weapon. In Europe hunting was and still is in many cases the preserve of the rich. This knife is not that. I prefer bitter it is sharper and lighter to taste. Tim Attached Images

6th February 2006, 05:31 PM	#13
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Tim, before you sip that bitter have a look at this: An early-mid 18th century German hunting sword fitted with a heavy double edged blade. Note the close similarity in the guard, also the one-piece grip. There is another similar with a different form of blade ending on eBay shortly. When it does I will attach the link for further comparison. Your observation regarding hunting and the aristocracy is a reasonable one. What it does not take into consideration is that though such swords began as hunting implements, they quickly became popular with officers and then, as is usually the case, with common soldiers as sidearms. Further, we are not seeing the sword above in its pristine state. The hilt parts are heavily worn-- note the corrosion on the ferrule. By contrast, the guard is bright. It has been cleaned over time, so that any embellishment which would originally have been found there is long gone. Ham Attached Images Last edited by ham; 6th February 2006 at 05:46 PM.

8th February 2006, 09:27 AM	#19
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Dear All! I'm happy to see discussion on this particular kind of hangers. I was always curious of this type because there are rarer and there is almost lack of any informations about them. I haven't much time to watch discussion very carefuly, but if I understand well, we've got two problems. First one is about genuineness of Valhjun's hanger. I'm not taking voice here about it, but I can say the hilt is quite poor. Such hilts were usually decored with engraving and repusee. But maybe such exceptions existed, though its out-of-style appearance is somehow strange. But I will second ham's and Jim's thoughts about hangers. Such ones with "chinese" hilts existed, and were produced in Europe, probably in central Europe, and it was somehow connected to oriental fashion popular on courts. Below you'll find more examples. First and second one are from book "Hladno lovacko oruzje" by Dora Boskovic. First one was made by Clemens Weyersberg in Solingen, 1730-1740 y., second is dated on 18/19 c., so it's quite late. Other ones are examples from my museum, dated around 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 18th century. One is with yataghan blade, with etched inscription looked like pattern, other one is with badly damaged, broken blade, but you can see some magical signs in there, used mostly in Germany. Regards! Attached Images

2nd February 2006, 06:28 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks almost like a hunting sword

2nd February 2006, 07:18 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am really sorry, I am hitting this pretty hard. The lanyard hole in the handle does not look as if it is through a tang, central to the blade or from the blades back. I am not sure the handles are blind like this on yataghan, if that is the correct terminology. Tim

2nd February 2006, 07:28 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This looks like a composite sword to me? Yataghan blade with a European style hunting sword hilt. Lew

3rd February 2006, 07:37 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yeah, I'm with you Louie on composite puppy.

3rd February 2006, 08:27 PM	#7
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	It might be wise not to write this sword off too quickly as an assembled piece. I recall there was a thread a few years back regarding the Pandors, in fact there was even a photo of one forumite dressed as one? They, among others, used such hybrid weapons-- or influenced them, in any case. There was endless warfare throughout the 17th and 18th century between the Turks and most of the Eastern European powers. This is probably a captured Ottoman blade fitted up for a German or Austrian. The bladeform is consistent with an earlier dating, and this type is also often pattern welded. Though the grip is provincial relative to others I've seen, I will venture a guess in the latter 18th century. Someone who is more knowledgeable about this form of guard can probably place it within a decade or two. Ham

4th February 2006, 01:31 AM	#8
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	It might be wise not to write this sword off too quickly as an assembled piece. If it is an assembled peice, it looks like the work was done quite some time ago. It also looks as though the new handle failed in use. So whomever bought this thing intended it for more then a simple wall hanger. n2s

5th February 2006, 08:52 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I am with Battara on this one. I suspect this has been assembled fairly recently. I too feel the guard is Chinese and recent, just have a look at the guards on some of the Chinese offerings from ebay.

5th February 2006, 06:24 PM	#10
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	"just have a look at the guards on some of the Chinese offerings from ebay" ?? Is this the new reference standard?! I think not. Tell you what, gentlemen. If, after one of you bothers to look into how European hunting swords were hilted (in a book, not eBay please) you can confidently say the mounts are Chinese, Stout's all round on me. Ham

5th February 2006, 09:59 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	I enthusiastically agree with Ham....ebay as reference resource...NOT!!!! I also concur with Ham on his assessment noting the very plausible Pandour associations with this weapon, and I would consider this sword homogenous, although possibly taken apart in restoring or cleaning components. The Pandours were essentially auxiliary units of the Austrian army during the reign of Maria Theresa, who very much influenced subsequent units that were added to the armies of several other European powers. These swords were basically fighting variants of 'hunting' swords, or couteaux de chasse and these evolved from similar hunting or riding swords of the 17th century. The Pandour examples were of mid 18th century, and this example may be one of the form probably used by as a fighting sabre by European officer in one of the latter auxiliary units modeled on the Pandour regiments. An illustration of these Austrian Pandour attributed swords is found in "Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" by I. Lebedynsky (p.69) and the deep bellied blade is virtually the same. While the decidedly oriental crossguard seems atypical, one of the key elements of the dress of these Pandour styled units was the fearsome appearance enhanced by varied and fearsome looking oriental garb, scalplocks and drooping mustaches etc. It would not seem unusual that such a guard might have been added on one of these swords. This example may be a yataghan type cavalry sabre of possibly Balkan or Austrian use from latter 18th to early 19th c. Best regards, Jim

6th February 2006, 06:05 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	That is very interesting Ham and I will agree that you have shown a similarity but just look how weak the handle of the one in discussion is, and then compere it to the one you have post. What do you make of the fresh file marks? Tim

6th February 2006, 06:47 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	The example Ham has posted presents interesting support for probable European provenance of the sword in discussion, very Oriental appearing guard as well recalling those of the Chinese jian. Trade with the Orient was well established in these times and Chinese weapons were keenly favored by aristocrats who proudly displayed them in thier estates. These lighter and smaller swords known as hunting swords often served as 'riding swords' and sidearms favored by the gentry during the 17th century before the advent of the smallsword in Europe. They became well known as sidearms favored by officers, who of course were in effect members of the gentry as well. This was especially known among maritime figures, and the hangers of these forms became well known among naval officers, officers on trade vessels and the familiar examples seen carried by pirates. They of course served well in close quarters combat as aboard ships, and in other instances were comfortably worn in city wear and riding, as well as in many combat situations found good purpose during melee. Despite thier utilitarian associations, these hangers were effective sidearms for defense. By the 18th century, hunting hangers had become well established among gentry, and often were produced as esteemed gifts and presentations in many situations. Their use as weapons is clearly shown in the Lebedynsky reference I have cited as well as many others, and larger more combat intended blades were indeed added for mounted use. Since regulation swords were not entirely in place as yet, especially for officers, who maintained free reign to carry sword styles either in vogue, heirloom or presented as they saw fit. The auxiliary forces of course carried whatever weapons they favored or had captured. Best regards, Jim

8th February 2006, 02:33 AM	#16
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Tim, what I have tried to show here is not that I dug up another sword with a similar guard-- that tends to leads to "the chicken or the egg" reasoning. Rather, I am trying to present the notion that one ought to search out and recognise formal groups, in this case guards, which tie together like examples. Here is another of this type: http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-CONTINENTAL-...QQcmdZViewItem Comparison leads to second deduction-- these similarly-hilted weapons share a spectrum of blade forms: we have one mounted as a yataghan, one symmetrical and another single-edged. This also supports a European origin for the sword under examination. The most general requirement I suppose is to broaden one's knowledge of forms as much as possible. Fortunately for most of us, it's a pleasure. As for the scratches on the guard, I can barely make them out I'm afraid. However given the condition of the ferrule relative to the guard, I would suggest that the scratches are indicative of cleaning which was more enthusiastic than skilled. Finally, I don't seem to be able to find any Chinese swords in any of my references with guards that bear more than a vague similarity with that of the one under discussion. Can you provide an example please? Ham

8th February 2006, 03:34 AM	#17
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Oh boy I know I am gonna get it now, taking on both Jim and ham, But, this one smacks of a pieced together specimen. At minimum it has been heavily and poorly messed with. 1) I will start with the corrosion on the hilt lanyard rivet and ferrule are completely different than the guard and the blade. Accepted that the guard and blade have been heavily cleaned, but I would expect more pitting if it started the same. 2) the ferrule is broken, that is usually a sure sign that the hilt has been switched and did not fit correctly. 3) the ferrule does not fit the guard ie; it doesn't curve to conform to the curve of the back of the guard. is that a piece of leather in between? lastly and the weakest 4) the over all appearace is "off". Now I will brace my self for the replys . As ham has stated this is a pleasure. Jeff

8th February 2006, 09:20 AM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Jeff, my thoughts exactly. The handle although ivory is so clumsy on this weapon especially as it is purporting to be a gentleman's accessory. Sometimes you have to punch above your weight or it goes to the wrong guy.

8th February 2006, 10:36 AM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Fantastic wolviex, this has been most informative and so far I still do not feel I have to eat all that I have said . The one in question does not even look that old and as the pictures show the handle is stubby and not elegant. I do not think I have seen this Chinese style on British hunting hangers.

8th February 2006, 12:16 PM	#21
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	My hat is off to you, Wolviex, I guess you solved this one, pan Michalko... I wouldve probably throw it as one of the Russian potentates hunting dagger, two-three centuries ago.

8th February 2006, 07:03 PM	#22
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Nicely done all. But who buys the beer? Ham

8th February 2006, 07:07 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Wolviex! I am drinking a very nice one right now called ZYWIEC 5.6% not bad for lager beer .

8th February 2006, 07:11 PM	#24
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Wolviex, thank you for an excelent lecture, and thank you for exelent pictures. Jens