A navy cutlass i think, but ... where from ?

fernando · 11th July 2011, 01:31 PM

The provenance is a collection from a local family house. But it doesn't have to be Portuguese; having most probably seen service in Portugal, but certainly imported, i would say.
I don't find tis model in the couple publications i have; the grip and hilt are iron, the guard edges rolled only in the narrow section, half way to the pommel. The slightly curved blade measures 70 cms ( 27 1/2"); the tip might have been clipped, probably broken by accident?.
A rather slight ridge can be noticed in the last section, ending in the tip.
Quite wide (38 mm) and thick (8 mm), both measured at the short (but existant) ricasso.
The lozenge label is in copper; could the number #125 be a regimental mark?
The slot for the sword knot defines this sword as non civilian, right?
Any help to ID this piece would be much appreciated.

.

fernando · 11th July 2011, 04:41 PM

Could this be the British PI845 ?

M ELEY · 12th July 2011, 02:08 AM

You hit it right on the head, Fernando! It is in fact the m1845 british boarding cutlass with the diamond-shaped copper plate displaying the rack number (this would have been assigned to a specific part of the ship and cataloged as such). These are very popular among naval collectors, although this one has seen better days. That being said, I like it! The rusting shows true character and probable use at sea (salt air just loved these swords, thus the reason many were primed/painted/japanned and tarred to reduce rusting). Many examples are pristine because they never saw any action, just sat there on some lonesome rail rack-

). These were used after the Age of Fighting Sail (post 1820), so hand to hand fighting on deck as well as naval combat had decreased, but one must remember that this was the time of the Malay pirates, Sepoy Mutiny and merchant shipping passing through other pirate hot-spots. These served as deterrents for both native attacks, pirate boardings and potential mutinies.

As far as I know, this pattern was only used by the British. I say this without absolute certainty because an earlier type of British cutlass, the figure-of-eight m1804, was so popular, that it was copied in multiple countries (I'm not at home to access my books, but I believe Norway, Germany/Austria, Sweden, the U.S., etc) but lacked the GR (George Rex) marking. Some had the crown mark, but a different crown than that found on the British types. The German makers Schnitzler and Kirschbaum even made a version with a spurious GR marking into the 1850's. This is obviously a whole different thread, though.

This model was replaced in the 1870's with another naval pattern, so this sword's 'life' would be in the 1845-1870 range. I noice that the tip on yours is slightly different than the standard pattern (reshaped during it's working life?), which isn't unheard of for these hands-on swords. Like the boarding axes and other naval implements before it, these items were often sharpened to death. Likewise, if it was de-commissioned after naval use to a merchant ship, it could easily have been shortened to the user's liking. I also mention the decommissioning to answer your question as to whether it was a naval sword or a private purchase. Probably both, but it definitely started life as naval. For some reason, with naval pieces (many of which were carried on ships LONG after they were obsolete), they seemed to be handed down from government usage to private purchase. Thus, we see U.S. naval boarding axes from the 1800-1812 era with re-issuance stamps, shortened hafts, cut-down or flattened spikes, etc, that were not the original axes, but altered during their working life (and not in ways the U.S. naval inspector Mr.Tarbell would have approved of-

). In any case, a nice find, my friend. And you were right about getting my attention!

fernando · 12th July 2011, 12:42 PM

Excelent Mark,
Thank you so much for the treatise.
Yes, i agree with you that this cutlass has seen service in a British naval ship. Not that British weaponry of the XIX century wasn't exported, donated or copied by the Portuguese (remember the Peninsular war ... and not only), but the rack number style, as recognized by you, is a strong indicator that this one sailed in British ships ... at least in its first encarnation.
Thanks again for having poured all that knowledge in this thread.

Matchlock · 12th July 2011, 05:03 PM

Hi 'Nando,

Your collecting range seems to be unlimited!

Best,
Michl

fernando · 12th July 2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

Your collecting range seems to be unlimited!

Best,
Michl

.

11th July 2011, 04:41 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	After some intense browsing ... Could this be the British PI845 ?

12th July 2011, 02:08 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	You hit it right on the head, Fernando! It is in fact the m1845 british boarding cutlass with the diamond-shaped copper plate displaying the rack number (this would have been assigned to a specific part of the ship and cataloged as such). These are very popular among naval collectors, although this one has seen better days. That being said, I like it! The rusting shows true character and probable use at sea (salt air just loved these swords, thus the reason many were primed/painted/japanned and tarred to reduce rusting). Many examples are pristine because they never saw any action, just sat there on some lonesome rail rack- ). These were used after the Age of Fighting Sail (post 1820), so hand to hand fighting on deck as well as naval combat had decreased, but one must remember that this was the time of the Malay pirates, Sepoy Mutiny and merchant shipping passing through other pirate hot-spots. These served as deterrents for both native attacks, pirate boardings and potential mutinies. As far as I know, this pattern was only used by the British. I say this without absolute certainty because an earlier type of British cutlass, the figure-of-eight m1804, was so popular, that it was copied in multiple countries (I'm not at home to access my books, but I believe Norway, Germany/Austria, Sweden, the U.S., etc) but lacked the GR (George Rex) marking. Some had the crown mark, but a different crown than that found on the British types. The German makers Schnitzler and Kirschbaum even made a version with a spurious GR marking into the 1850's. This is obviously a whole different thread, though. This model was replaced in the 1870's with another naval pattern, so this sword's 'life' would be in the 1845-1870 range. I noice that the tip on yours is slightly different than the standard pattern (reshaped during it's working life?), which isn't unheard of for these hands-on swords. Like the boarding axes and other naval implements before it, these items were often sharpened to death. Likewise, if it was de-commissioned after naval use to a merchant ship, it could easily have been shortened to the user's liking. I also mention the decommissioning to answer your question as to whether it was a naval sword or a private purchase. Probably both, but it definitely started life as naval. For some reason, with naval pieces (many of which were carried on ships LONG after they were obsolete), they seemed to be handed down from government usage to private purchase. Thus, we see U.S. naval boarding axes from the 1800-1812 era with re-issuance stamps, shortened hafts, cut-down or flattened spikes, etc, that were not the original axes, but altered during their working life (and not in ways the U.S. naval inspector Mr.Tarbell would have approved of- ). In any case, a nice find, my friend. And you were right about getting my attention! Last edited by M ELEY; 12th July 2011 at 04:14 AM.

11th July 2011, 01:31 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	A navy cutlass i think, but ... where from ? The provenance is a collection from a local family house. But it doesn't have to be Portuguese; having most probably seen service in Portugal, but certainly imported, i would say. I don't find tis model in the couple publications i have; the grip and hilt are iron, the guard edges rolled only in the narrow section, half way to the pommel. The slightly curved blade measures 70 cms ( 27 1/2"); the tip might have been clipped, probably broken by accident?. A rather slight ridge can be noticed in the last section, ending in the tip. Quite wide (38 mm) and thick (8 mm), both measured at the short (but existant) ricasso. The lozenge label is in copper; could the number #125 be a regimental mark? The slot for the sword knot defines this sword as non civilian, right? Any help to ID this piece would be much appreciated. . Attached Images

12th July 2011, 12:42 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Excelent Mark, Thank you so much for the treatise. Yes, i agree with you that this cutlass has seen service in a British naval ship. Not that British weaponry of the XIX century wasn't exported, donated or copied by the Portuguese (remember the Peninsular war ... and not only), but the rack number style, as recognized by you, is a strong indicator that this one sailed in British ships ... at least in its first encarnation. Thanks again for having poured all that knowledge in this thread.

12th July 2011, 05:03 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Your collecting range seems to be unlimited! Best, Michl