Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th February 2020, 03:29 PM   #1
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default Yataghan translation

Hello,

Kwiatek or somebody elese, please help me with the translation of the text on this Yataghan!

Regards,

Marius
Attached Images
   

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 15th February 2020 at 04:44 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2020, 06:00 PM   #2
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 49
Default

Normally the same Turkish poems come up again and again, but this is one Iíve never seen before as an inscription. I read it as:

بر اهلی [کذا] کامل اوسته قولی قربانی اول
خار ایچنده بتان غنچه گوله منت ایلمم

ابلیسک تعلیم اتدیکی یوله منت ایلمم
عربی ف[ا]رسی بلمیان دیله منت ایلمم

Bir ehl-i kamil usta kulu kurbanı ol
H‚r iÁinde biten gonca gŁle minnet eylemem

İblisin taílim ettiği yola minnet eylemem
ArabÓ FarsÓ bilmeyen dile minnet eylemem


ďBe the slave of and sacrifice for a master who is from the people of perfection.
I am not grateful for the bud of a rose that ends in a thorn,

I am not grateful for a path that Satan has taught,
I am not grateful for a tongue that knows neither Arabic nor Persian.ď

The last three lines are from a poem of Fuzuli (d. 1556). In fact they have been used as the lyrics for songs in Turkey called Minnet Eylemem (though the songwriters appear to have often misunderstood the meaning of the old Turkish).

Hope that helps
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2020, 06:09 PM   #3
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwiatek
Hope that helps


Wow! Of course it helps! You made me very, very happy! and confirms my suspicion this is a Turkish made Yataghan.


Thank you very, very much!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2020, 06:13 PM   #4
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 49
Default

Certainly from the Ottoman Empire.

Youíre very welcome. Is nice to see an inscription of this kind I havenít seen before. Thanks for posting
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2020, 09:53 PM   #5
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwiatek
Certainly from the Ottoman Empire.

I had no doubts that it is from the Turkish Empire. However, I wanted to know where in the Turkish Empire was it made?! More exactly was it Turkey or the Balkans?!

As I found signs of wootz, I suspected that it was made in Turkey because I am not aware of Balkan smiths working wootz.

Now, the verses of an original Turkish poem seem to confirm my supposition, since if it were made in the Balkanns would have one of the more commonly used texts.

But this is only my rather far fetched speculation, as it is almost impossible to establish with certainty where it was made.

Thank you once again for your help!

PS: I have many Ottoman bldes and most likely i'll seek you help again.

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 16th February 2020 at 04:40 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2020, 11:19 PM   #6
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 49
Default

I donít think the poems can tell you whether it was made in Anatolia or the Balkans. Turkish poetry would have been read and understood by officers and dignitaries all over the Balkans, Aegean and Anatolia in this period
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 07:39 AM   #7
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwiatek
I donít think the poems can tell you whether it was made in Anatolia or the Balkans. Turkish poetry would have been read and understood by officers and dignitaries all over the Balkans, Aegean and Anatolia in this period


True indeed!
And also Turkish smiths may have travelled and worked in the Balkans.
So, nothing certain.
But it is a lovely piece!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 02:52 PM   #8
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,778
Default

Because it's full silver work some members will tell you that this Yat is Greek.
But Kubur in his infinite wisdom will tell you that this Yat is Ottoman Turkish.
Amen
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2020, 04:40 PM   #9
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Because it's full silver work some members will tell you that this Yat is Greek.
But Kubur in his infinite wisdom will tell you that this Yat is Ottoman Turkish.
Amen





Brilliant! You made my day!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2020, 04:14 PM   #10
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,321
Default

The hilt and scabbard are Greek indeed. Mounts usually indicate where a weapon was used.

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2020, 06:10 PM   #11
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,778
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
The hilt and scabbard are Greek indeed. Mounts usually indicate where a weapon was used.

Teodor




Please explain to us why these mounts are Greek do you have any proof??
Silver work is not always Greek, do you have any particular element to say that?
Its funny, there is nothing wrong to change his mind...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2020, 06:59 PM   #12
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
The hilt and scabbard are Greek indeed. Mounts usually indicate where a weapon was used.

Teodor


Possibly, but I don't think so... Traces of wootz, original Turkish poem, style of decoration, all make me favour more the Turkish origin.

I have noticed a trend/fashion to allocate most of the Ottoman weapons to Greece or the Balcans, like there were no swordsmiths in Turkey, when in fact there were a lot of them. And they were among the most skilled swordsmiths of their time, working wootz and the exceptionally elaborate Turkish Ribbon pattern welded blades.

And I noticed this not only in the discussions here but also with reputed auction houses. In fact, I acquired a few "Greek" or "Balkan" Ottoman swords and daggers with the silver mounts marked with the Turgha...

I also have major doubts about several of the pieces in Elgood's book "The Arms of Greece and her Balkan Neighbours in the Ottoman Period" where he proclaims the pieces are Greek or from the Balkans without providing the faintest sliver of evidence...
Now are we supposed to swallow that only because Elgood said so?!
Well, I am certainly not!

... but then again... who am I to criticize the work Elgood?!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2020, 07:49 PM   #13
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur

Please explain to us why these mounts are Greek do you have any proof??
Silver work is not always Greek, do you have any particular element to say that?
Its funny, there is nothing wrong to change his mind...


Do we have to post multiple examples of Greek weapons with similar decorative style every time we have this argument? Seems a little tedious and counter productive, as you are stubbornly going to stick to your panturkic beliefs anyway.

For those actually interested in the decoration as a method of identifying where arms were used, Sylektis has done all the work with pictures from various Greek museums:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...ht=greek+museum

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...ht=greek+museum

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...ht=greek+museum

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthrea...ht=greek+museum

Everyone is free to compare the style of the museum items with the mounts of the yataghan in this thread and make their own conclusions.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2020, 10:36 PM   #14
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV

Everyone is free to compare the style of the museum items with the mounts of the yataghan in this thread and make their own conclusions.


The fact those weapons are displayed in Greek museums only means they were collected in Greece, but by no means can it be seen as evidence they were ALL made in Greece.

After all, the Ottoman army didn't conquer Greece with sticks, nor did it invade Greece to get a source of decent weaponry...

And the Balkans did became a known source of weaponry only after the Ottoman occupation, not before that.

And what about examples from Turkish museums?! Where are they?!

What about a well documented book about Turkish swordsmiths and their style, markings, etc?!

There isn't any?!

So then, in the absence of evidence we embrace the evidence of absence...

... and so, falacies are propagated and spread until they become the well known truth...

PS: If you read the captions from the museum exhibits, you may notice most say "weapons USED during Greek revolution..." not weapons MADE in Greece. However, some display quite clear Greek characteristics, being undoubtedly made in Greece while others look 100% Turkish...

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 18th February 2020 at 11:12 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th February 2020, 11:32 PM   #15
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
The fact those weapons are displayed in Greek museums only means they were collected in Greece, but by no means can it be seen as evidence they were ALL made in Greece.


If multiple similarly decorated weapons were all collected within the same geographic area, does not that establish a distribution pattern?

As for the made vs. used debate, would you consider takoubas with the typical tripple fuller Solingen made blades as swords from the Sahel, or from Germany?
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 02:43 AM   #16
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,778
Default

Ok now let's be serious with facts
The only argument is the silver hilt and scabbard.
Silver work repousse was used by Ottomans not only in Greece, but also in Algeria and primary in Turkey.
Yes you have Greek yataghans with silver repousse, yes the work is of a very high quality. But the design and the patterns are very different from the ones made in Turkey.
You need to look at daggers and bichaq too.
If you don't see the differences then I can't do nothing for you.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 07:00 AM   #17
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Silver work repousse was used by Ottomans not only in Greece, but also in Algeria


Correct - arms produced in Epirus were exported to North Africa, as Elgood mentions.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 01:26 PM   #18
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
If multiple similarly decorated weapons were all collected within the same geographic area, does not that establish a distribution pattern?

As for the made vs. used debate, would you consider takoubas with the typical tripple fuller Solingen made blades as swords from the Sahel, or from Germany?


Yes, it is exactly as you said: it establishes a DISTRIBUTION pattern but is not providing information about their origin.

If you find many WWII German weapons in Russia and see a massive amount of them in Russian museums, does this mean they were made in Russia?! In fact, even these days you may find lots of German rusty weapons in the area around present day Volgograd (formerly Stalingrad)... so can we conclude that Stalingrad was a major centre for manufacturing German weapons?!

Going a little bit further in time... the numerous Viking swords in English museums do indicate that they were made in England?

As the Ottoman army invaded the Balkans and Greece, they were accompanied by numerous Turkish swordsmiths necessary for ensuring the maintenance of their weapons.
As the Ottomans established local garrisons in the occupied areas, so they established local centres of swordmaking....
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 03:43 PM   #19
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Going a little bit further in time... the numerous Viking swords in English museums do indicate that they were made in England?


You are bringing up a great point - the so called Viking swords were not made in Britain, where they were used by both Norsemen and Saxons, and they were not made in Scandinavia either. They were made by Frankish smiths (some even suggest it was Frankish monks) along the Rhineland. Yet we refer to these swords as Viking and not Frankish. Blades were traded far and wide, but mounts tend to reflect local tastes and provide more information about the actual users.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 04:42 PM   #20
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,420
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
You are bringing up a great point - the so called Viking swords were not made in Britain, where they were used by both Norsemen and Saxons, and they were not made in Scandinavia either. They were made by Frankish smiths (some even suggest it was Frankish monks) along the Rhineland. Yet we refer to these swords as Viking and not Frankish. Blades were traded far and wide, but mounts tend to reflect local tastes and provide more information about the actual users.


Exactly!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2020, 01:46 PM   #21
Sylektis
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 127
Default

To begin with, it should be noted that at that time, Greece did not exist. However, there were Ottomans of Greek descent, very good at their job. They were located throughout the Ottoman territory, in some villages even as the Kallarites of Epirus almost 100% of the inhabitants were silversmiths. (The VULGARI international house for example started there.) Unfortunately, though we have a multitude of silverware in monasteries with their manufacturers' signatures, this is not the case with everyday objects such as weapons, jewelry, etc.
Thus, we cannot safely attribute the Nationality of an object, especially before 1821, when the Greek Revolution began. It may not sound scientific at all, but only with the experience of visiting as many museums as possible in the areas of the former Ottoman Empire can we attribute (always with probability) an object to Greek, Turkish, Albanian, Montenegrin or Armenian craftsman.
In this case, the photos do not help in any comparison, but I do not think the manufacturer of the scabbard is a Greek one.
Sylektis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2020, 02:55 PM   #22
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylektis
In this case, the photos do not help in any comparison, but I do not think the manufacturer of the scabbard is a Greek one.


Your knowledge of arms decorated and used in what is Greece today is far greater than mine, so I will defer to you on this.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:04 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.