Two Tulwars For Comment

Lew · 5th November 2006, 09:12 PM

This question is for Jens. I bought these a few years back and would like to see if I can get some more information on them markings,age and region. The top sword has some type of inserted edged blade with a T shaped spine and the bottom sword has traces of wootz patterning in a few spots.

Lew

katana · 5th November 2006, 11:07 PM

Very nice Tulwars Lew......envious

Jens Nordlunde · 6th November 2006, 01:01 PM

Hi Lew,

I am really not very good at judging weapons from pictures, I prefer to have them in my hand, but let me try.

The hilt on the first one is interesting, fluted grips are seen before, but they are not common – is it silver? Do I guess correctly if I say there is a flower on top of the disc?
The blade looks nice, and I can see two eyelashes with three dots at each end, however there seem to be something more closer to the hilt, but I can’t see it clearly – what is it?
The blade must be broad, but not necessarily heavy, as the ‘T’ spine will help stiffen the blade. You don’t write anything about wootz, so I suppose it is not watered. I thinbk I see a ricasso, but I am not sure. I think the blade is Indian, and it could be older than the hilt, although I am not sure.
My guess would be Rajasthan, 18th to early 19th century.

The hilt of the second tulwar is not so easy to see, I think it may have a flower on top of the disc, but I am less certain than with the first one – does it have a flower?
Very nice blade with deep stamps, which must have been made while it was hot, as it would not be possible to make them so deep on a cold blade. Have you had the stamps translated? Does the blade have a ricasso? Also here I think the blade could be older than the hilt.
I am not sure from where it is, early 19th century.

Here is what I think, do you, or anyone else have better guesses?

Lew · 6th November 2006, 03:27 PM

Jens

The silver hilted one has a sun burst or flower type design the other tulwar I can't quite remember right now I will take a few close ups of the hilt. The tulwar with the deep stuck stamps has no riccasso.

Lew

Jens Nordlunde · 6th November 2006, 05:23 PM

Yes i know Lew, almost like this one.
Don't you have any more comments to my questions?

Lew · 6th November 2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes i know Lew, almost like this one.
Don't you have any more comments to my questions?

Yes

The fluted hilt seems to be silver overlay. What is the significance of the blade having or not having a riccasso? The top sword is not wootz but it does seem to have an inserted edge so it must be some type of lamination?

Lew

Jens Nordlunde · 6th November 2006, 07:14 PM

Lew,

Are you sure the fluted hilt is not made of silver? Have you tried with a magnet? It could be silver plated, but then again, it could be of silver.

Most Indian made blades have a ricasso, often it is said, that blades without a ricasso are European – I doubt that, as I think some of them are Indian made as well, maybe copied from European blades, but still Indian.

Interesting also, as some claim that the reason for the ricasso was, that the Indians used to have their index finger curled around the quillon, to give better room for the other fingers, and to have a better grip. I find it hard to convince myself of this theory, but these blades could have been made in other places, and been exported to India.

They did make blades of softer steel and insert an edge of hard steel, so maybe yours is one of these.

Lew · 7th November 2006, 03:18 AM

Jens

Here are some close ups of the hilts.

Lew

Jens Nordlunde · 7th November 2006, 03:04 PM

Lew,

Thank you for the pictures. The one with the gold decoration looks old. The first mark looks like a letter and a number to me, and the second mark, the eyelashes are made in a way, which I have never seen before. It looks very primitive, but there is no doubt what the meaning was. This is interesting, as the eyelashes were said to be a copy of a European sword mark, and maybe it was, but why then mark the blade as it is on yours, as this mark would fool no one. No one would take it for being a European blade mark, so maybe the eyelashes with the dots can have more than one meaning.

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 8th November 2006, 10:42 AM

very nice imo

Would love to have something like it. Nice patterns as well.

But the tang on the second sword, lookks kind of thin in accordance with the blade?

Lew · 8th November 2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hrthuma ibn Marwan

very nice imo

Would love to have something like it. Nice patterns as well.

But the tang on the second sword, lookks kind of thin in accordance with the blade?

Can you be more specific about the tang. There is no picture of a tang?

Lew

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2006, 03:26 AM

Hi Lew,
I wanted to add some data I have been able to come up with on the first tulwar with the fluted hilt, although Jens has already pretty concisely observed the essentials. As Jens has noted, these are reasonably uncommon and represented by only a few in various references and collections.

The vertically fluted hilt grip is very much like an extremely interesting item I found in "India: Art & Culture 1300-1900" by Stuart Cary Welch. It is item #169 which is a Mughal silver antimony flask of the mid 17th century, stated from either Agra or Delhi. The flask itself is shaped remarkably similar to these hilt grips with the same shape, vertical fluting and stylized acanthus leaves . Actually the flask itself actually looks like a tulwar hilt grip.

It is noted that, as we have discussed before, the style of this flask seems to carry architectural influence, something that occurs in so many instances in the elements of weapon hilts. Reference is made to the upward swelling of Mughal domes (many of which have vertical ribbing) and the "almost baroque columns" of the Sawon Pavilion in Delhi's Red Fort.

Apparantly this flask was used to hold antimony as found in a solution of kohl which was the black application placed around the eyes for protection from the sun.

It would appear that the script markings on the blade are in Gujerati and as Jens noted, are numerals, I believe a 7 and a 5. This suggests of course arsenal markings. Gujerati I also believe, was used as a trade script in nemerous regions including Rajasthan, among others. The crudely scratched imitation of the 'Genoan' sickle marks could not possibly have been applied as 'forgeries', but it my opinion were applied possibly by an owner attempting to ascribe the significance talismanically. I think that these markings receiving so much emphasis on trade blades, of course for quality, may have been misinterpreted by native individuals as carrying talismanic powers.
This of course is simply my own opinion and would require a great deal more research to support in detail.

A tulwar with one of these interesting hilts appears in "On Damascus Steel" by Dr. L.Figiel (1991, p.56, #PS9) and has the distinct vertical fluting and is of the silver or white metal typical of them. There are no acanthus leaves present however, and I'm not sure if these occur on other examples found.
The example is identified as 18th century, and carries a bit more flourish than the very clean geometric nature of your tulwar.

I am inclined to agree that Rajasthan or more northern Delhi, and likely mid 19th century may be the best attribution for this very attractive tulwar.
I hope this will be of some help.

All the best,
Jim

Lew · 11th November 2006, 03:33 AM

Thanks Jim and Jens

Lew

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2006, 09:47 PM

You're welcome Lew!

Andreas Volk · 14th November 2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Lew,

Thank you for the pictures. The one with the gold decoration looks old. The first mark looks like a letter and a number to me, and the second mark, the eyelashes are made in a way, which I have never seen before. It looks very primitive, but there is no doubt what the meaning was. This is interesting, as the eyelashes were said to be a copy of a European sword mark, and maybe it was, but why then mark the blade as it is on yours, as this mark would fool no one. No one would take it for being a European blade mark, so maybe the eyelashes with the dots can have more than one meaning.

Hi Jens!
I'm not sure on the "european eyelash" mark but I "guess" - and that is really what I'm doing - that this
symbol / decoration was used in a hinduistic context as well.
Please find attached the decoration on one of my kukris (2nd part of the 19th cent. is my guess).
Please also note that the lashes ar on the inside.

Best regards

Andreas Volk

Jens Nordlunde · 14th November 2006, 06:30 PM

Hi Andreas,

What makes me wonder is, the blade seems to be a nice one, and the hilt better than average, so not a cheap tulwar at the time - why then make ‘eye lashes’ like this?

Although the Muslims also used talismanic markings, I agree with you, that I also think it is a Hindu marking.

The markings on your kukri are interesting, and although I don’t know, I would think it is seldom to see on kukris. On thing, which I find especially interesting, is the way the eyelashes are ‘closed’ by the three dots. I have a tulwar where eye lashes and fullers are started and end with three dots. Unfortunately I don’t yet know why that is, but I am working on it.

Best

Jens

Rick · 14th November 2006, 07:52 PM

Just to confuse things further allow me to throw this variation into the mix .

Jens Nordlunde · 14th November 2006, 09:26 PM

Hi Rick,

Your contribution does not really add to the confusion, as far as I am concerned, as I am after the three dots, not the eye lashes

, and they apear in warious places.

Andreas Volk · 14th November 2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Just to confuse things further allow me to throw this variation into the mix .

Hi Rick.
Thanks a lot for posting this - these marks are a wonderful hybrid. One of my thoughts was that the eyelids (eyelashes) were somehow related to
the halfmoon (kauri) like maks one finds from time to time (pls. see attached).

To be honest I onl found out recently about the "eyelash" meaning - I took the ones on my kukri for variations of the
kauri mark when I first bought it.
Your markings are amazing as the combine the "temple kauri" with the eyelashes. Outstanding !
thanks a lot for sharing - and a decent kukri as well - i'd love to see a full pic if you have the time.
Kind regards

Andreas

FourBlades · 15th November 2006, 02:48 AM

Very nice tulwars.

Does the t-shaped spine on the first one contribute anything to its provenance?

Does anyone know the origins of such a reinforcement?

John

frequent · 16th November 2006, 07:46 AM

those blades look very clean very nice

Lew · 20th November 2006, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourBlades

Very nice tulwars.

Does the t-shaped spine on the first one contribute anything to its provenance?

Does anyone know the origins of such a reinforcement?

John

John

The "T" back spine I believe is more often seen in blades from the more northern part of India.

Lew

6th November 2006, 05:23 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes i know Lew, almost like this one. Don't you have any more comments to my questions? Attached Images

7th November 2006, 03:18 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens Here are some close ups of the hilts. Lew Attached Images

7th November 2006, 03:04 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Lew, Thank you for the pictures. The one with the gold decoration looks old. The first mark looks like a letter and a number to me, and the second mark, the eyelashes are made in a way, which I have never seen before. It looks very primitive, but there is no doubt what the meaning was. This is interesting, as the eyelashes were said to be a copy of a European sword mark, and maybe it was, but why then mark the blade as it is on yours, as this mark would fool no one. No one would take it for being a European blade mark, so maybe the eyelashes with the dots can have more than one meaning. Attached Images

14th November 2006, 07:52 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Just to confuse things further allow me to throw this variation into the mix . Attached Images

14th November 2006, 09:26 PM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Rick, Your contribution does not really add to the confusion, as far as I am concerned, as I am after the three dots, not the eye lashes, and they apear in warious places. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 14th November 2006 at 09:48 PM.

5th November 2006, 09:12 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Two Tulwars For Comment This question is for Jens. I bought these a few years back and would like to see if I can get some more information on them markings,age and region. The top sword has some type of inserted edged blade with a T shaped spine and the bottom sword has traces of wootz patterning in a few spots. Lew Attached Images

5th November 2006, 11:07 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Very nice Tulwars Lew......envious

6th November 2006, 01:01 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Lew, I am really not very good at judging weapons from pictures, I prefer to have them in my hand, but let me try. The hilt on the first one is interesting, fluted grips are seen before, but they are not common – is it silver? Do I guess correctly if I say there is a flower on top of the disc? The blade looks nice, and I can see two eyelashes with three dots at each end, however there seem to be something more closer to the hilt, but I can’t see it clearly – what is it? The blade must be broad, but not necessarily heavy, as the ‘T’ spine will help stiffen the blade. You don’t write anything about wootz, so I suppose it is not watered. I thinbk I see a ricasso, but I am not sure. I think the blade is Indian, and it could be older than the hilt, although I am not sure. My guess would be Rajasthan, 18th to early 19th century. The hilt of the second tulwar is not so easy to see, I think it may have a flower on top of the disc, but I am less certain than with the first one – does it have a flower? Very nice blade with deep stamps, which must have been made while it was hot, as it would not be possible to make them so deep on a cold blade. Have you had the stamps translated? Does the blade have a ricasso? Also here I think the blade could be older than the hilt. I am not sure from where it is, early 19th century. Here is what I think, do you, or anyone else have better guesses?

6th November 2006, 03:27 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens The silver hilted one has a sun burst or flower type design the other tulwar I can't quite remember right now I will take a few close ups of the hilt. The tulwar with the deep stuck stamps has no riccasso. Lew

6th November 2006, 07:14 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Lew, Are you sure the fluted hilt is not made of silver? Have you tried with a magnet? It could be silver plated, but then again, it could be of silver. Most Indian made blades have a ricasso, often it is said, that blades without a ricasso are European – I doubt that, as I think some of them are Indian made as well, maybe copied from European blades, but still Indian. Interesting also, as some claim that the reason for the ricasso was, that the Indians used to have their index finger curled around the quillon, to give better room for the other fingers, and to have a better grip. I find it hard to convince myself of this theory, but these blades could have been made in other places, and been exported to India. They did make blades of softer steel and insert an edge of hard steel, so maybe yours is one of these.

8th November 2006, 10:42 AM	#10
Hrthuma ibn Marwan Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in my study Posts: 18	very nice imo Would love to have something like it. Nice patterns as well. But the tang on the second sword, lookks kind of thin in accordance with the blade?

11th November 2006, 03:26 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	Hi Lew, I wanted to add some data I have been able to come up with on the first tulwar with the fluted hilt, although Jens has already pretty concisely observed the essentials. As Jens has noted, these are reasonably uncommon and represented by only a few in various references and collections. The vertically fluted hilt grip is very much like an extremely interesting item I found in "India: Art & Culture 1300-1900" by Stuart Cary Welch. It is item #169 which is a Mughal silver antimony flask of the mid 17th century, stated from either Agra or Delhi. The flask itself is shaped remarkably similar to these hilt grips with the same shape, vertical fluting and stylized acanthus leaves . Actually the flask itself actually looks like a tulwar hilt grip. It is noted that, as we have discussed before, the style of this flask seems to carry architectural influence, something that occurs in so many instances in the elements of weapon hilts. Reference is made to the upward swelling of Mughal domes (many of which have vertical ribbing) and the "almost baroque columns" of the Sawon Pavilion in Delhi's Red Fort. Apparantly this flask was used to hold antimony as found in a solution of kohl which was the black application placed around the eyes for protection from the sun. It would appear that the script markings on the blade are in Gujerati and as Jens noted, are numerals, I believe a 7 and a 5. This suggests of course arsenal markings. Gujerati I also believe, was used as a trade script in nemerous regions including Rajasthan, among others. The crudely scratched imitation of the 'Genoan' sickle marks could not possibly have been applied as 'forgeries', but it my opinion were applied possibly by an owner attempting to ascribe the significance talismanically. I think that these markings receiving so much emphasis on trade blades, of course for quality, may have been misinterpreted by native individuals as carrying talismanic powers. This of course is simply my own opinion and would require a great deal more research to support in detail. A tulwar with one of these interesting hilts appears in "On Damascus Steel" by Dr. L.Figiel (1991, p.56, #PS9) and has the distinct vertical fluting and is of the silver or white metal typical of them. There are no acanthus leaves present however, and I'm not sure if these occur on other examples found. The example is identified as 18th century, and carries a bit more flourish than the very clean geometric nature of your tulwar. I am inclined to agree that Rajasthan or more northern Delhi, and likely mid 19th century may be the best attribution for this very attractive tulwar. I hope this will be of some help. All the best, Jim

11th November 2006, 03:33 AM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Thanks Jim and Jens Lew

11th November 2006, 09:47 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	You're welcome Lew!

14th November 2006, 06:30 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Andreas, What makes me wonder is, the blade seems to be a nice one, and the hilt better than average, so not a cheap tulwar at the time - why then make ‘eye lashes’ like this? Although the Muslims also used talismanic markings, I agree with you, that I also think it is a Hindu marking. The markings on your kukri are interesting, and although I don’t know, I would think it is seldom to see on kukris. On thing, which I find especially interesting, is the way the eyelashes are ‘closed’ by the three dots. I have a tulwar where eye lashes and fullers are started and end with three dots. Unfortunately I don’t yet know why that is, but I am working on it. Best Jens

15th November 2006, 02:48 AM	#20
FourBlades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 13	T shaped spines? Very nice tulwars. Does the t-shaped spine on the first one contribute anything to its provenance? Does anyone know the origins of such a reinforcement? John

16th November 2006, 07:46 AM	#21
frequent Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 7	those blades look very clean very nice