keris bali

simatua · 17th September 2005, 11:09 AM

Fist of all i want to thank everybody on the forum who welcomed me as a new member.

here some pictures of a bali keris, from my own collection.
...see, learn and give opinion if you like.

btw Is there someone can tell me more about the wood / sheath ?
I have my doubts about it if its originally made in Bali or...?

nechesh · 18th September 2005, 06:09 PM

Well, i'm surprised none of the kerisopiles have come foward with a comment yet, but just so you don't think we are ignoring the "new guy"

i'll throw in my two cents. It looks like you have a fairly nice late 19thC Bali keris there with the fairly full feature ricikan which are common for this type. I would love to see you restain this blade to raise the pamor a bit better. I would think that in the Netherlands there should be a few people capable of doing this for you if you are not into doing it yourself.
I am also not too sure about the origin of your sheath. It looks like it might be Madurese work as it looks similar to the Madura Ladrang style sheath, but then for some reason i think i remember seeing a Bali keris in this form of sheath before.
It would be helpful if you posted a full length picture of the blade along with the close-ups.

simatua · 18th September 2005, 06:56 PM

thanks for the opinion,

Especially about the date, I also had the same thinking about the 19th century.

I know about the cleaning / marangi and sometimes i do it myself.
Sometimes i think its better to leave the keris like it is; I saw in the history at this forum a balinese keris absolute magnifcant, before and after washing it.
Sometimes after cleaning indeed the pamor comes more out... but gives a look too shiny and bright for my taste.

It is indeed nice to get some comment, and helped me a lot.
But i also will show a part of my collection to eveybody who is interested.
Not for showing off....I only have a humble collection, and i know there are others with far more higher colections. Besidese taste can always
be different.

i will place some more pictures this week.... after that i will be goiing for 4 weeks to the land of kerises: Indonesia

BluErf · 21st September 2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Well, i'm surprised none of the kerisopiles have come foward with a comment yet......

Hey Nechesh, I think you qualify as a kerisophile. Look at your choice of avatar!

BluErf · 21st September 2005, 02:12 PM

And btw, its a real nice Balinese keris here. Can Simatua please post more pictures of the top sheath please? A straight shot of the top sheath would be nice.

nechesh · 21st September 2005, 10:07 PM

No Kai Wee, i'm a kerisofanatic! There's a difference!

simatua · 22nd September 2005, 12:13 PM

Here some more pictures. For a Balinese infact it is a very short blade
about 44 cm.
For myself i think the sheath is made from some kind of root/ wortel?

purwacarita · 23rd September 2005, 04:32 PM

Hi simatua. I think that if you see the keris from beauty perspective, you would not care even if it is not originally from places as said. If you see from yoni perspective, you would not care if the keris is either 1 year old or 1000 years old. Just remember that what people say as kadutan, or pusaka, or pertimi, is not because the keris has those properties, but because people see it as such. For example, I'd love to say a pusaka as a historical pertimi or historicable pertimi. But somebody else can say his keris, pusaka, because the kadutan has saved his life (CE:from getting biten by his neighbor's dog), and I could not blame him for saying his keris so. Because he is 100% right. So Be Careful.

nechesh · 24th September 2005, 01:30 AM

You know Martin, Purwa might have a point here. I mean, why should we bother to try and determine anything about our keris when they can be anything we want them to be if we can see them from the yoni perspective. So when an unscrupulous keris dealer mahars a keris to you at $1000 and tells you it is a powerful pusaka when in fact it was made yesterday by a skilled craftman in Madura it shouldn't matter, right, because "what people say as kadutan, or pusaka, or pertimi, is not because the keris has those properties, but because people see it as such."???

Rick · 24th September 2005, 04:19 PM

I personally can't think of anything more insulting than the suggestion that I might have to use a keris to protect myself from a street dog when the act of simply bending over to pick up a rock would send it flying away like the wind .

BluErf · 24th September 2005, 07:09 PM

All parties shd take a deep breath and relax...

Anyway, I thought the sheath was most interesting. The way the 3rd eye of shiva was carved on the wrangka is something new to me, so are the longer than usual daun-daun (the curls at both ends of the wrangka). Also interesting is the 'fuller' that extends from batang into the wrangka. Any further insights into the origins of this sheath form?

Rick · 24th September 2005, 09:21 PM

Exhales...........

Hi Blu , I have seen some similar elements pictured in Jensen's Den Indonesiske Kris .
The extended fullers are Balinese and elements of the extended doan doan can also be seen in the same book as Balinese , but not exclusively so for either design element .
The bulbous wrangka seems more like a Javanese feature .

The eye of Shiva is a most unusual interpretation of this element and puzzles me too .

I'd vote for a Jawa Bali fusion most likely made in Jawa .
Only my opinion though .
YMMV

nechesh · 24th September 2005, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'd vote for a Jawa Bali fusion most likely made in Jawa .
Only my opinion though .
YMMV

Rick, are you referring to just the sheath here, or the blade as well.
This sheath seems to combine elements i've seen in early Bali Ladrang sheaths with more Javanese or Madurese styles.It also bears some resemblence to certain types of Madurese Ladrang styles. It is obviously newer than the blade and appears fairly recent in the photos. Both Hilt and Sarong seem to be a matched set, made at the same time from the same wood and made for this blade. My feeling is that it was probably recently made in Madura, though i wouldn't count out Jawa.The blade, however, is Balinese made, IMO, but it is only an opinion.

Rick · 24th September 2005, 11:14 PM

Just the sheath Nechesh , and I do agree the ukiran seems to be made ensemble but since Kai wee was referring to the sheath that is what I addressed .

Alam Shah · 25th September 2005, 04:19 AM

Interestingly, the hilt on the 4th picture shows an abstract image of a 'wayang character", side profile.

5th picture of the newer photos, the hilt shows an abstract image of a "beast". Just an observation.

purwacarita · 25th September 2005, 10:56 AM

Hi Nechesh. I have my own view, others can have different one. Being different does not mean either is wrong. You can say your weapon as pusaka if you treasure it after its historical properties albeit it does not have any esoteric induced. It will be your pusaka, but when you hand over the keris to other person and he do not appreciate the keris the same way you do, he will not think of the keris as pusaka.

Another example, I should call my pertimi, pusaka. Because of its capability/capacity in the history of the family, ...but saying it pusaka will loosen its core meaning as a blessed keris, pertimi. So I'd rather call it as its property, pertimi.

I'm glad that you still concern about the yoni perspective. I can sense the amplitude of it with my skin, but I could not determine the type. Any suggestions? You seem you could sense it too.

Hi Rick. The insult is when people lie about their keris when they try to sell it in order to fetch higher price. I see the efficacy of stone idea for people not to easily withdraw their keris. I think it'll work for any pecalang. Thank you.

purwacarita · 25th September 2005, 10:58 AM

Inhale......

nechesh · 26th September 2005, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Nechesh. I have my own view, others can have different one. Being different does not mean either is wrong. You can say your weapon as pusaka if you treasure it after its historical properties albeit it does not have any esoteric induced. It will be your pusaka, but when you hand over the keris to other person and he do not appreciate the keris the same way you do, he will not think of the keris as pusaka.

Another example, I should call my pertimi, pusaka. Because of its capability/capacity in the history of the family, ...but saying it pusaka will loosen its core meaning as a blessed keris, pertimi. So I'd rather call it as its property, pertimi.

Purwa, You will find me pretty much in agreement with you in your first paragraph. However, you lose me in the second. I do not see why it isn't possible for your keris to be BOTH pusaka AND pertimi and to call them such, without "loosen(ing) the core meaning as a blessed keris". Both these conditions should be able to co-exist and infact strengthen one another.
The reason you got the response you did when you wrote: "I think that if you see the keris from beauty perspective, you would not care even if it is not originally from places as said. If you see from yoni perspective, you would not care if the keris is either 1 year old or 1000 years old. Just remember that what people say as kadutan, or pusaka, or pertimi, is not because the keris has those properties, but because people see it as such."......is not because i completely disagree with you. I think it is MOST important to find a keris that speaks to you, though it's beauty, yoni (though i still think this is a misuse of the word i understand your meaning

) and inner nature, not because it is this many years old or for that particular island. I obtain a certain keris because it calls to me for what ever reason. BUT....i then still want to know what it's story is as best i can discern. The story is not the reason to get the keris, but trying to work these things out is a big part of what we do here on this form. People here collect keris for MANY different reasons, ALL of them are valid. Some have spiritual connection like you and i. Some do not. Neither should be seen as a superior position. But we all want to know and share as much information about any piece presented here as best we can. In that light, to say that you think we should not care about the age and origins of these keris seems a bit out of place and leave a whole lot less to talk about.

purwacarita · 28th September 2005, 12:16 PM

Hi nechesh. You will find the answer in the classification method. Java seems to have hierarchical classification, where though I'm not speaking to represent Bali view, I put forth classification which ovelaps each other. It means that keris could be BOTH pusaka and pertimi and as well as kadutan. The condition DOES co-exist and in fact strengthen one another as you said. Thus it is up to the owner to choose the way the keris speaks to him. It is in fact reflects how the owner respects the keris.

If it's always told to me that the keris is pusaka, ...I would have probably forget the esoteric properties, as I will be gazed at the history of it in the family. Thus, the calling is shifted, from the calling that represents owner subjective view, to calling that represents keris objective properties. Though it is still subjective, as I must say that the esoteric properties itself that makes it possible to color the history of the family.

In other possibility implication, to see a keris pertimi while it is not, is not something worth to discuss about.

I understand that people will want keris discussed in many perspectives possible including the age and origins of it, in antique/history perspective. I do agree with you though I personally think it will be very hard as keris is most kept and inherited as private belonging. The age is perhaps traceable, but to trace to first origin of the first owner or its family is almost impossible, unless you are somehow very close to a respected family which have the most secret treasured pusaka. Other way you will see only keris traffic, changing hands for how many, you would not imagine. If you really can sense the vibrating energy, you can be 50% sure the keris is old enough, and consider yourself lucky that the perishing energy is still there for you to find out, but that's if some prana master did not recently induce some of his magic to it. But if you can't sense it, I don't know which device is portable enough to carry to determine the age of the target.

~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

17th September 2005, 11:09 AM	#1
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	keris bali Fist of all i want to thank everybody on the forum who welcomed me as a new member. here some pictures of a bali keris, from my own collection. ...see, learn and give opinion if you like. btw Is there someone can tell me more about the wood / sheath ? I have my doubts about it if its originally made in Bali or...? Attached Images

18th September 2005, 06:56 PM	#3
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	thanks thanks for the opinion, Especially about the date, I also had the same thinking about the 19th century. I know about the cleaning / marangi and sometimes i do it myself. Sometimes i think its better to leave the keris like it is; I saw in the history at this forum a balinese keris absolute magnifcant, before and after washing it. Sometimes after cleaning indeed the pamor comes more out... but gives a look too shiny and bright for my taste. It is indeed nice to get some comment, and helped me a lot. But i also will show a part of my collection to eveybody who is interested. Not for showing off....I only have a humble collection, and i know there are others with far more higher colections. Besidese taste can always be different. i will place some more pictures this week.... after that i will be goiing for 4 weeks to the land of kerises: Indonesia

22nd September 2005, 12:13 PM	#7
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Here some more pictures. For a Balinese infact it is a very short blade about 44 cm. For myself i think the sheath is made from some kind of root/ wortel? Attached Images

24th September 2005, 04:19 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Flowery Insults ? I personally can't think of anything more insulting than the suggestion that I might have to use a keris to protect myself from a street dog when the act of simply bending over to pick up a rock would send it flying away like the wind .

24th September 2005, 07:09 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	All parties shd take a deep breath and relax... Anyway, I thought the sheath was most interesting. The way the 3rd eye of shiva was carved on the wrangka is something new to me, so are the longer than usual daun-daun (the curls at both ends of the wrangka). Also interesting is the 'fuller' that extends from batang into the wrangka. Any further insights into the origins of this sheath form? Last edited by BluErf; 25th September 2005 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Typed 'breath' wrongly.

18th September 2005, 06:09 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, i'm surprised none of the kerisopiles have come foward with a comment yet, but just so you don't think we are ignoring the "new guy" i'll throw in my two cents. It looks like you have a fairly nice late 19thC Bali keris there with the fairly full feature ricikan which are common for this type. I would love to see you restain this blade to raise the pamor a bit better. I would think that in the Netherlands there should be a few people capable of doing this for you if you are not into doing it yourself. I am also not too sure about the origin of your sheath. It looks like it might be Madurese work as it looks similar to the Madura Ladrang style sheath, but then for some reason i think i remember seeing a Bali keris in this form of sheath before. It would be helpful if you posted a full length picture of the blade along with the close-ups.

21st September 2005, 02:12 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	And btw, its a real nice Balinese keris here. Can Simatua please post more pictures of the top sheath please? A straight shot of the top sheath would be nice.

21st September 2005, 10:07 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No Kai Wee, i'm a kerisofanatic! There's a difference!

23rd September 2005, 04:32 PM	#8
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi simatua. I think that if you see the keris from beauty perspective, you would not care even if it is not originally from places as said. If you see from yoni perspective, you would not care if the keris is either 1 year old or 1000 years old. Just remember that what people say as kadutan, or pusaka, or pertimi, is not because the keris has those properties, but because people see it as such. For example, I'd love to say a pusaka as a historical pertimi or historicable pertimi. But somebody else can say his keris, pusaka, because the kadutan has saved his life (CE:from getting biten by his neighbor's dog), and I could not blame him for saying his keris so. Because he is 100% right. So Be Careful.

24th September 2005, 01:30 AM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	You know Martin, Purwa might have a point here. I mean, why should we bother to try and determine anything about our keris when they can be anything we want them to be if we can see them from the yoni perspective. So when an unscrupulous keris dealer mahars a keris to you at $1000 and tells you it is a powerful pusaka when in fact it was made yesterday by a skilled craftman in Madura it shouldn't matter, right, because "what people say as kadutan, or pusaka, or pertimi, is not because the keris has those properties, but because people see it as such."???

24th September 2005, 09:21 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Exhales........... Hi Blu , I have seen some similar elements pictured in Jensen's Den Indonesiske Kris . The extended fullers are Balinese and elements of the extended doan doan can also be seen in the same book as Balinese , but not exclusively so for either design element . The bulbous wrangka seems more like a Javanese feature . The eye of Shiva is a most unusual interpretation of this element and puzzles me too . I'd vote for a Jawa Bali fusion most likely made in Jawa . Only my opinion though . YMMV

24th September 2005, 11:14 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Just the sheath Nechesh , and I do agree the ukiran seems to be made ensemble but since Kai wee was referring to the sheath that is what I addressed .

25th September 2005, 04:19 AM	#15
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Interestingly, the hilt on the 4th picture shows an abstract image of a 'wayang character", side profile. 5th picture of the newer photos, the hilt shows an abstract image of a "beast". Just an observation.

25th September 2005, 10:56 AM	#16
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Nechesh. I have my own view, others can have different one. Being different does not mean either is wrong. You can say your weapon as pusaka if you treasure it after its historical properties albeit it does not have any esoteric induced. It will be your pusaka, but when you hand over the keris to other person and he do not appreciate the keris the same way you do, he will not think of the keris as pusaka. Another example, I should call my pertimi, pusaka. Because of its capability/capacity in the history of the family, ...but saying it pusaka will loosen its core meaning as a blessed keris, pertimi. So I'd rather call it as its property, pertimi. I'm glad that you still concern about the yoni perspective. I can sense the amplitude of it with my skin, but I could not determine the type. Any suggestions? You seem you could sense it too. Hi Rick. The insult is when people lie about their keris when they try to sell it in order to fetch higher price. I see the efficacy of stone idea for people not to easily withdraw their keris. I think it'll work for any pecalang. Thank you.

25th September 2005, 10:58 AM	#17
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Inhale......

28th September 2005, 12:16 PM	#19
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh. You will find the answer in the classification method. Java seems to have hierarchical classification, where though I'm not speaking to represent Bali view, I put forth classification which ovelaps each other. It means that keris could be BOTH pusaka and pertimi and as well as kadutan. The condition DOES co-exist and in fact strengthen one another as you said. Thus it is up to the owner to choose the way the keris speaks to him. It is in fact reflects how the owner respects the keris. If it's always told to me that the keris is pusaka, ...I would have probably forget the esoteric properties, as I will be gazed at the history of it in the family. Thus, the calling is shifted, from the calling that represents owner subjective view, to calling that represents keris objective properties. Though it is still subjective, as I must say that the esoteric properties itself that makes it possible to color the history of the family. In other possibility implication, to see a keris pertimi while it is not, is not something worth to discuss about. I understand that people will want keris discussed in many perspectives possible including the age and origins of it, in antique/history perspective. I do agree with you though I personally think it will be very hard as keris is most kept and inherited as private belonging. The age is perhaps traceable, but to trace to first origin of the first owner or its family is almost impossible, unless you are somehow very close to a respected family which have the most secret treasured pusaka. Other way you will see only keris traffic, changing hands for how many, you would not imagine. If you really can sense the vibrating energy, you can be 50% sure the keris is old enough, and consider yourself lucky that the perishing energy is still there for you to find out, but that's if some prana master did not recently induce some of his magic to it. But if you can't sense it, I don't know which device is portable enough to carry to determine the age of the target. ~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.