A strange question

Gavin Nugent · 15th June 2010, 01:14 AM

In my dealings with various Chinese people and others of SEA origins, when talking and showing pictures of arms I have noted they call the Rencong a Keris.
I don't find this too strange when viewing a Rencong as if I was to draw a paralell however vague, the Rencong has a single luk and the duru seuke resembles the Gandik or Wedidang of the traditional Keris form.
If a line is drawn down the centre of the traditional Keris it seems the Rencong is, to a degree, half a Keris.
What are the thoughts and views people in this forum and in particular those of SEA origins?

Gav

Rick · 15th June 2010, 01:25 AM

Apples and Oranges ??

I know I wasn't asked ...

Gavin Nugent · 15th June 2010, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Apples and Oranges ??

I know I wasn't asked ...

Ducks and Emus

Maurice · 15th June 2010, 10:56 AM

I recently started to study some old images of Atjeh warriors and their weapons on them.

By the way most of them carry a keris, or a rentjong and not both at the same time....

I thought I found one person carrying both, a keris and a rentjong, but I can't find the image. If I find it, I will post it still.

A. G. Maisey · 15th June 2010, 03:32 PM

The history and development of the keris in Jawa can be traced without a great deal of difficulty. Monumental evidence, evidence in literature, evidence in recorded history generated by Europeans, and of course the myths, legends and folk tales.

We've got a pretty decent handle on where the keris came from and how it developed.

Nowhere in that line of development can I find even the slightest hint of any deviation that may have given rise to the rencong.

I believe the rencong to simply be one of the many edged weapons of Maritime South East Asia, that in one particular cultural group, has been raised to the level of that that group's dominant traditional weapon. Within that cultural group it occupies a similar position to the keris as an item of dress, and it can become a pusaka object. However, I have not yet encountered any evidence that the rencong carries the same, or even similar binding essence as does the pusaka keris.

Jawa and Bali have the keris, in other areas we have the rencong and the badik. All traditional weapons, all cultural icons, all required items of dress, but only the keris appears to have that additional association with the binding power of the naga and especially with the naga Basuki. Only the keris carries the complex numerological iconography.

However, we do have a nice little folk tale.

For a long time Javanese culture has been the dominant culture of Maritime South East Asia, and this has caused a certain mindset amongst some Javanese people, a mindset that causes the belief to be held that all things initially came from Jawa. Jawa is the center of the universe and all things of any importance originated in Jawa.

Let me be very clear:- I neither support nor deny this concept, I merely comment that there is an attitude amongst some Javanese people that accepts that this is so.

During the time of Sultan Agung (1613-1646) an embassy was sent to Aceh to consolidate friendship with Sultan Iskandar Muda. As a symbol of friendship a one luk keris was sent to Sultan Iskanadar Muda, along with a message which read in part:-

"--- mugi dhuwung pusaka punika sageda dados rencang---"

this may be understood approximately as:-

"--- hopefully this keris will become a friend---" ("rancang" is a Javanese word meaning friend)

This message was misunderstood by the Sultan and his court, who thought that the name of the weapon was "rancang"

Over time "rancang" became "rencong".

Yes, there is a little bit of a problem with the "one luk keris", but we must not let accuracy spoil a good story.

Gav, in my experience it is wise not to take too much notice of what people with very limited knowledge of a specialist field have to say about things subject of that specialist field. The knowledge of the ordinary Javanese man in the street of keris is muddled, befuddled and almost invariably so far from reality that anything he says on the subject is best accepted and agreed with. You don't even try to set the record straight. Its simply too hard.

I'm a ridgy didge fair dinkum Aussie, with more than my fair share of bush experience. Maybe it would be reasonable to think I know something about traditional Koori weaponry. I know nothing.

If we seek knowledge in a specialist field, we need to speak with people who are specialists in that field.

Gavin Nugent · 15th June 2010, 08:33 PM

Thank you Alan,

I know I am in the right room to speak with knowledgeable specialists and my interest in the views of laymen (of which I am one with Keris) has been answered fully.
The comments of other laymen about the rencong being called a Keris in some circles may have been misconstrued from this 'folk tale' mentioned and I was surprised to hear the story of the Sultan and his gift, the comparison it seems, has to some degree to have been explored in folk history even if it is a good ole yarn or bedtime story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For a long time Javanese culture has been the dominant culture of Maritime South East Asia, and this has caused a certain mindset amongst some Javanese people, a mindset that causes the belief to be held that all things initially came from Jawa. Jawa is the center of the universe and all things of any importance originated in Jawa.

This sounds much like the views of many in Melbourne about Melbourne

Thanks again

Gav

15th June 2010, 01:14 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A strange question In my dealings with various Chinese people and others of SEA origins, when talking and showing pictures of arms I have noted they call the Rencong a Keris. I don't find this too strange when viewing a Rencong as if I was to draw a paralell however vague, the Rencong has a single luk and the duru seuke resembles the Gandik or Wedidang of the traditional Keris form. If a line is drawn down the centre of the traditional Keris it seems the Rencong is, to a degree, half a Keris. What are the thoughts and views people in this forum and in particular those of SEA origins? Gav

15th June 2010, 10:56 AM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,324	I recently started to study some old images of Atjeh warriors and their weapons on them. By the way most of them carry a keris, or a rentjong and not both at the same time.... I thought I found one person carrying both, a keris and a rentjong, but I can't find the image. If I find it, I will post it still. Last edited by Maurice; 15th June 2010 at 11:09 AM.

15th June 2010, 01:25 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Apples and Oranges ?? I know I wasn't asked ...

15th June 2010, 03:32 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	The history and development of the keris in Jawa can be traced without a great deal of difficulty. Monumental evidence, evidence in literature, evidence in recorded history generated by Europeans, and of course the myths, legends and folk tales. We've got a pretty decent handle on where the keris came from and how it developed. Nowhere in that line of development can I find even the slightest hint of any deviation that may have given rise to the rencong. I believe the rencong to simply be one of the many edged weapons of Maritime South East Asia, that in one particular cultural group, has been raised to the level of that that group's dominant traditional weapon. Within that cultural group it occupies a similar position to the keris as an item of dress, and it can become a pusaka object. However, I have not yet encountered any evidence that the rencong carries the same, or even similar binding essence as does the pusaka keris. Jawa and Bali have the keris, in other areas we have the rencong and the badik. All traditional weapons, all cultural icons, all required items of dress, but only the keris appears to have that additional association with the binding power of the naga and especially with the naga Basuki. Only the keris carries the complex numerological iconography. However, we do have a nice little folk tale. For a long time Javanese culture has been the dominant culture of Maritime South East Asia, and this has caused a certain mindset amongst some Javanese people, a mindset that causes the belief to be held that all things initially came from Jawa. Jawa is the center of the universe and all things of any importance originated in Jawa. Let me be very clear:- I neither support nor deny this concept, I merely comment that there is an attitude amongst some Javanese people that accepts that this is so. During the time of Sultan Agung (1613-1646) an embassy was sent to Aceh to consolidate friendship with Sultan Iskandar Muda. As a symbol of friendship a one luk keris was sent to Sultan Iskanadar Muda, along with a message which read in part:- "--- mugi dhuwung pusaka punika sageda dados rencang---" this may be understood approximately as:- "--- hopefully this keris will become a friend---" ("rancang" is a Javanese word meaning friend) This message was misunderstood by the Sultan and his court, who thought that the name of the weapon was "rancang" Over time "rancang" became "rencong". Yes, there is a little bit of a problem with the "one luk keris", but we must not let accuracy spoil a good story. Gav, in my experience it is wise not to take too much notice of what people with very limited knowledge of a specialist field have to say about things subject of that specialist field. The knowledge of the ordinary Javanese man in the street of keris is muddled, befuddled and almost invariably so far from reality that anything he says on the subject is best accepted and agreed with. You don't even try to set the record straight. Its simply too hard. I'm a ridgy didge fair dinkum Aussie, with more than my fair share of bush experience. Maybe it would be reasonable to think I know something about traditional Koori weaponry. I know nothing. If we seek knowledge in a specialist field, we need to speak with people who are specialists in that field.