Help needed - sword with inscription "Frincia"

Tofam · 24th June 2008, 07:15 PM

Hello,

on my attic I found a very old sword with the inscription "frincia" and a sun, a moon and a star on it. My family thinks it is ottoman, but we are not really sure. Maybe someone of you could tell me more about it.

Thanks a lot!

Here some pics that might help you:

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

Atlantia · 3rd July 2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tofam

Hello,

on my attic I found a very old sword with the inscription "frincia" and a sun, a moon and a star on it. My family thinks it is ottoman, but we are not really sure. Maybe someone of you could tell me more about it.

Thanks a lot!

Here some pics that might help you:

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

Can you insert the images into your post, I cant see them when I click on the links.

TVV · 3rd July 2008, 06:00 PM

Same here, apparently to see the pictures one needs a gmx account.

Perkun · 3rd July 2008, 08:09 PM

Hello,
I cannot open the images, but I am interested to see the sword. Could you please email me with the pics to email found in my contact info?
Best regards,

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2008, 04:39 AM

The name/term 'fringia' is associated often with the so-called 'sickle' or 'eyelash' marks that are generally held to have been taken from blades from Italy c.15th c. and the terms 'Genoa' and 'ferara' are also found with these marks.

The fringia marking itself seems more associated with 18th century blades that carry the magical/talismanic symbols of sun, moon and star and are typically seen on German and Hungarian trade blades. The Hungarians sometimes termed a type of cavalry sabre in mid 18th c. 'fringia'. It would seem that Solingen quickly would have adopted this term in marking blades.

While I cannot comment on this sword, I can say it is certainly not Ottoman (even though there have even been suggestions that the fringia term might be Turkish? ). The blade would likely be one of these trade blades, and when we see the hilt, we might have more on where it may have been mounted.

"in the attic" !!!

What else might be lurking in there!!! Nicely done.

ref: "Wallace Collection" Sir James Mann, 1962, pp.255,274,361, also cites discussions on 'sickle marks' and this term from "Zeitschrifte fur Historische Waffenkunde" II, 27,151,270 (sure would love to have access to these German Arms Society journals that go back to end of 19th c.!!

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2008, 05:20 AM

Just looked in Wagner, "Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967:
p.348-349, in plate 32 is a 'FRINGIA' hussar sabre of 18th c. Austria, with the word engraved on one side of blade, a sun and half moon with human faces between two stars. The author offers some interesting speculation on the source for the word, suggesting the Latin word 'frangere' (=to break, smash) but this seems unlikely. Also offered are initials from regal titles,
FRedericus (III, Holy Roman Emperor 1415-93) Rex (Hungariae) IN Germania Imperator Augustus. ....but this seems reaching!
It is noted that this term and its variations Frindia, Francia occur on 17th and 18th c. blades, used in Poland and Hungary, and even occurs as early as on the sword of King of Poland Stephen Bathory (1532-1586).

While nothing conclusive on the origin of the term, it seems clear that it is well established on Hungarian and Polish swords from 16th-18th c. in a number of variants. It would appear this may be an East European version of the Andrea Ferrara mystery!!

ariel · 4th July 2008, 01:42 PM

Fringia is a marking seen very often on European trade blades. The problem is that the place does not exist.
Trade blades from Styria and Italy were exported in great amounts to the Orient, where they were highly valued and called Firangi ( foreign , western). To ease the marketing process, these blades were labeled Fringia by the manufacturers: then there was no doubt in the buyer's mind that the blade indeed came from the West and was true Firangi.
The modern MBAs had nothing on their wily ancestors!

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2008, 04:31 PM

As far as I know, the term fringia, or its variations, have never been considered to have represented a place, but most probably a term which does imply quality. This concept has been noted by the early arms writers, particularly DeCosson, as mentioned in discussions on Andrea Ferrara etc. It is suggested that rather than names of actual smiths, these terms possibly denoted type of sword i.e. Ferrara =broadsword ( typically the 'grosse schotten', Scottish broadswords), Sahagun, which seems to occur more on single edged blades.
Ariels suggestion of fringia being a corruption of the well established term 'feranghi' and applied to trade blades for export is most interesting and presents some great opportunity for discussion. It is my impression that the term feranghi was simply a colloquial term which arose in India with the Mahratta import of Portuguese blades. As he has noted in earlier posts, the term probably did apply more to straight rapier type blades. The term 'alemani' came later more to the south, where German and French weapons, especially sabres came in with those forces in the service of Hyder Ali (Tipu Sultans father). Therefore that term became associated with curved sabre blades, typically of German origin.

With regard to trade blades of Styria, these indeed were exported widely, but as far as to the Orient, I am only aware of those which went to the Caucasian regions (which I believe is included with use of that term). Styria was of course part of Austria (Graz was key) and did adopt use of markings in the manner of Solingen's marketing strategies.

The term feranghi is believed to have even more specifically meant Portuguese, and became more broadly applied later with colloquial use and transliteration. It was as far as I know never applied by stamp or inscription on a blade, and the FRINGIA term on blades seems to have been isolated to blades from the Eastern European regions. Since it does seem to have been applied congruent to the familiar 'sickle marks' (as noted by Sir James Mann in his work on the Wallace Collection) it likely did occur on many trade blades, and probably did appear on some that appeared in India, though it seems doubtful that the term would have had particular meaning literally. Typically illiteracy rendered wording on blades relatively ineffective compared to the use of easily recognized markings or symbols on trade blades in native regions.

As noted earlier, the FRINGIA term is yet another mystery that goes well with those of the trademarks, symbols and names of early makers, as discussed in that thread.

ward · 4th July 2008, 06:52 PM

Am I missing something? Where the pics of the sword?

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2008, 01:42 AM

I'm anxious to see if we get pictures or further response as well Ward, but this thread was great incentive to learn a bit more on the FRINGIA marking on blades.
I would really like to hear from anyone out there who has seen blades with this name or term on them, as it does seem that they have shown up on some examples from India and some 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if , but cannot place the instances.

In the meantime, it does seem that the connections between Italy and the makers in Styria were from ancient times, as the Romans highly regarded the steel from these regions (then Noricum). This may explain the reasonably consistant appearance of the well known 'sickle marks' typically associated with Styrian arms and armor, and are generally held to have originally been from Italian makers of Genoa, though probably a guild mark rather than a makers mark. As noted earlier, the FRINGIA is in numerous instances found with these marks on blades, suggesting either Styrian or Hungarian production. I have not yet found examples of Italian blades inscribed with this term, but the Austro-Hungarian provenance for these blades seems well established.

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2008, 02:26 PM

Another exciting episode of Antiques Trollshow

Looking forward for some new material though, the inherited items thing has of course been a standing favorite, but this year it has been finding weapons in walls of old houses being renovated etc. Who can forget the old helmet found in an attic holding up a beam, that turned out to be a Negroli worth a zillion dollars!
Now if someone could find an old sword stuck in a rock!!!!!

Hope the Frincia data will help as we all watch for one of these to appear soon on your favorite shopping location.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2008, 03:18 AM

Any sign of fringia bladed weapons on ebay?

24th June 2008, 07:15 PM	#1
Tofam Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2	Help needed - sword with inscription "Frincia" Hello, on my attic I found a very old sword with the inscription "frincia" and a sun, a moon and a star on it. My family thinks it is ottoman, but we are not really sure. Maybe someone of you could tell me more about it. Thanks a lot! Here some pics that might help you: http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/dfstoo...26f=fullscreen

4th July 2008, 04:31 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	As far as I know, the term fringia, or its variations, have never been considered to have represented a place, but most probably a term which does imply quality. This concept has been noted by the early arms writers, particularly DeCosson, as mentioned in discussions on Andrea Ferrara etc. It is suggested that rather than names of actual smiths, these terms possibly denoted type of sword i.e. Ferrara =broadsword ( typically the 'grosse schotten', Scottish broadswords), Sahagun, which seems to occur more on single edged blades. Ariels suggestion of fringia being a corruption of the well established term 'feranghi' and applied to trade blades for export is most interesting and presents some great opportunity for discussion. It is my impression that the term feranghi was simply a colloquial term which arose in India with the Mahratta import of Portuguese blades. As he has noted in earlier posts, the term probably did apply more to straight rapier type blades. The term 'alemani' came later more to the south, where German and French weapons, especially sabres came in with those forces in the service of Hyder Ali (Tipu Sultans father). Therefore that term became associated with curved sabre blades, typically of German origin. With regard to trade blades of Styria, these indeed were exported widely, but as far as to the Orient, I am only aware of those which went to the Caucasian regions (which I believe is included with use of that term). Styria was of course part of Austria (Graz was key) and did adopt use of markings in the manner of Solingen's marketing strategies. The term feranghi is believed to have even more specifically meant Portuguese, and became more broadly applied later with colloquial use and transliteration. It was as far as I know never applied by stamp or inscription on a blade, and the FRINGIA term on blades seems to have been isolated to blades from the Eastern European regions. Since it does seem to have been applied congruent to the familiar 'sickle marks' (as noted by Sir James Mann in his work on the Wallace Collection) it likely did occur on many trade blades, and probably did appear on some that appeared in India, though it seems doubtful that the term would have had particular meaning literally. Typically illiteracy rendered wording on blades relatively ineffective compared to the use of easily recognized markings or symbols on trade blades in native regions. As noted earlier, the FRINGIA term is yet another mystery that goes well with those of the trademarks, symbols and names of early makers, as discussed in that thread. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th July 2008 at 05:13 AM. Reason: wording

3rd July 2008, 06:00 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	Same here, apparently to see the pictures one needs a gmx account.

3rd July 2008, 08:09 PM	#4
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Hello, I cannot open the images, but I am interested to see the sword. Could you please email me with the pics to email found in my contact info? Best regards,

4th July 2008, 04:39 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	The name/term 'fringia' is associated often with the so-called 'sickle' or 'eyelash' marks that are generally held to have been taken from blades from Italy c.15th c. and the terms 'Genoa' and 'ferara' are also found with these marks. The fringia marking itself seems more associated with 18th century blades that carry the magical/talismanic symbols of sun, moon and star and are typically seen on German and Hungarian trade blades. The Hungarians sometimes termed a type of cavalry sabre in mid 18th c. 'fringia'. It would seem that Solingen quickly would have adopted this term in marking blades. While I cannot comment on this sword, I can say it is certainly not Ottoman (even though there have even been suggestions that the fringia term might be Turkish? ). The blade would likely be one of these trade blades, and when we see the hilt, we might have more on where it may have been mounted. "in the attic" !!! What else might be lurking in there!!! Nicely done. ref: "Wallace Collection" Sir James Mann, 1962, pp.255,274,361, also cites discussions on 'sickle marks' and this term from "Zeitschrifte fur Historische Waffenkunde" II, 27,151,270 (sure would love to have access to these German Arms Society journals that go back to end of 19th c.!!

4th July 2008, 05:20 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Just looked in Wagner, "Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967: p.348-349, in plate 32 is a 'FRINGIA' hussar sabre of 18th c. Austria, with the word engraved on one side of blade, a sun and half moon with human faces between two stars. The author offers some interesting speculation on the source for the word, suggesting the Latin word 'frangere' (=to break, smash) but this seems unlikely. Also offered are initials from regal titles, FRedericus (III, Holy Roman Emperor 1415-93) Rex (Hungariae) IN Germania Imperator Augustus. ....but this seems reaching! It is noted that this term and its variations Frindia, Francia occur on 17th and 18th c. blades, used in Poland and Hungary, and even occurs as early as on the sword of King of Poland Stephen Bathory (1532-1586). While nothing conclusive on the origin of the term, it seems clear that it is well established on Hungarian and Polish swords from 16th-18th c. in a number of variants. It would appear this may be an East European version of the Andrea Ferrara mystery!!

4th July 2008, 01:42 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fringia is a marking seen very often on European trade blades. The problem is that the place does not exist. Trade blades from Styria and Italy were exported in great amounts to the Orient, where they were highly valued and called Firangi ( foreign , western). To ease the marketing process, these blades were labeled Fringia by the manufacturers: then there was no doubt in the buyer's mind that the blade indeed came from the West and was true Firangi. The modern MBAs had nothing on their wily ancestors!

4th July 2008, 06:52 PM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Am I missing something? Where the pics of the sword?

5th July 2008, 01:42 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I'm anxious to see if we get pictures or further response as well Ward, but this thread was great incentive to learn a bit more on the FRINGIA marking on blades. I would really like to hear from anyone out there who has seen blades with this name or term on them, as it does seem that they have shown up on some examples from India and some 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if , but cannot place the instances. In the meantime, it does seem that the connections between Italy and the makers in Styria were from ancient times, as the Romans highly regarded the steel from these regions (then Noricum). This may explain the reasonably consistant appearance of the well known 'sickle marks' typically associated with Styrian arms and armor, and are generally held to have originally been from Italian makers of Genoa, though probably a guild mark rather than a makers mark. As noted earlier, the FRINGIA is in numerous instances found with these marks on blades, suggesting either Styrian or Hungarian production. I have not yet found examples of Italian blades inscribed with this term, but the Austro-Hungarian provenance for these blades seems well established.

5th July 2008, 02:26 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Another exciting episode of Antiques Trollshow Looking forward for some new material though, the inherited items thing has of course been a standing favorite, but this year it has been finding weapons in walls of old houses being renovated etc. Who can forget the old helmet found in an attic holding up a beam, that turned out to be a Negroli worth a zillion dollars! Now if someone could find an old sword stuck in a rock!!!!! Hope the Frincia data will help as we all watch for one of these to appear soon on your favorite shopping location.

20th July 2008, 03:18 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Any sign of fringia bladed weapons on ebay?