Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

A. G. Maisey · 30th September 2007, 11:51 PM

Michel, my striker has at various times been one of my sons, my wife, or myself---with wife or son holding the tongs. Couple of times it has been people I've been teaching at the time.I have never had mechanical assistance.

My hold-down tool is a gooseneck that fits in the pritchel hole. You stick the billet under it, whack the bend in the gooseneck, which drives it down tight into the hole, then whack the billet. Not particularly effective, and constantly needs reshaping, but it does work, and the job can be done with it.

I was taught to forge with coal, and to weld, I had to coke the coal then weld. My teacher at that time was an oldtime blacksmith named Gordon Blackwell, and he taught me to weld by reading the fire. Depending on the type of material you are welding, when the material approaches weld heat the fire throws out different sparks. You observe the fire very closely and when you see the sparks you're looking for you take the weld.

Later on I learnt a different method of testing weld heat and that is I what I have used since I learnt it, no matter if I am using coke, charcoal or gas.

Make a poker out of half inch material and forge it to a point. When you feel that the material is coming into weld heat you touch the surface of the billet with the point of the poker, if it is ready to weld the surface will be just a wee bit sticky.It is best to keep the poker warm by passing it high through the flames. You do not take it wet out of the tub and try to test with it.

I have never used colour as an indicator for welding, it can be too misleading, and it varies according to the light coming into the forge. The colour of a billet ready to weld that is in an enclosed smithy is significantly different to the colour of a billet ready to weld that is outside under a tree.

In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2007, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

Alan,Michel,Graham and All,
I like borax..sometimes with some cast iron filings for a tricky weld..it goes liquid and baths the work.
I am lucky in that I have a rather fully tooled shop (50 weight hammer, 45 ton hydraulic press, small rolling mill and soon a 3B Nazel (265 weight air hammer) will be online.

I like pattern-welding quite a bit and like Alan says the "feel" comes in time, but gas does let you view the steel and take some liberties that are not possible in other fuels (like walking away to refill the coffee cup) while the billet cooks. I have done 45 pound billets of steel in the past, but rarely work over 20 pounds now..15 being the "normal" size for the tools I have.

I just finished this axe and sword for an exhibit. The blade is a yataghan varient with three bar composite (300 layer top and bottom with 150 layer center twist). The Axe is a five bar composite with three twisted layers and two straight..20 layer bar each.

Ric

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2007, 03:41 AM

Hello All,
Here are the shots that could not be viewed on the other forum.
If this and the previous message are too far outside this discussion please delete.

Raw materials (crucible,steel powder,meteorite,green glass)
Ingot cooking (note full safety gear..or lack ther of)
Ingot of smelted meteorite steel which was fored out and welded to modern 1084 steel for contrast
blade made from that billet..1600 layer twist with ivory and ebony
blade detail

Ric

Michel · 1st October 2007, 11:41 AM

Thank you Alan,
From each of your answers, I learn a lot.
I print them and make a file out of them. Invaluable.
How do they call these experts in Japan : living treasure ? I do not recall the exact name. This is what you are for me. thanks a lot.

Hi Richard,
You are indeed well equipped in your workshop and produce well made tools.
In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials.
What exactly is "crucible" ?
Why do you put green glass in your forging process ?
You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ?
What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ?
Regards
Michel

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2007, 04:51 PM

Michel,

In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials.
What exactly is "crucible" ?
-------a crucible is a ceramic container which holds the molten metal in the furnace.
Why do you put green glass in your forging process ?
---------the glass is a flux which bonds with the oxides and removes them from the metal so it can melt and be free of contamination...borax is too aggressive and will eat the crucible.
You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ?
------the crucible is covered (cosed system) and the glass is the flux so there is very little loss
What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ?
---the steel is a modern metal powder of known chemistry so I can get a certain type of steel when I cam finished.
Ric

Michel · 1st October 2007, 05:56 PM

Thank you Ric
It shows that you are really making your steel at your own specifications.
Impressive.
I am really in an other ball game. My ideal has been to achieve some results with as little as possible equipment. I have always been impressed by the abilities of the Indonesian smiths (as an example) who work with very little equipment and almost any type of metal scrap they can find. And they heat weld !
I have still a lot to learn.
Thank you for your explanations
Regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 1st October 2007, 09:51 PM

I think that my philosophy has always been the same as yours, Michel. From the beginning , I wanted to work as close to barebones as I could. The reason I learnt how to do forge work was to prepare me for the instruction I was to recieve from Empu Suparman---I didn't want to walk in cold, knowing nothing.When you work like this, there are some severe limitations on what can be done. Using a gas forge does make things easier, but the only reason I went to gas was that I was unable to buy coke, and living in a residential area, I could not use coal.

Michel, I suggest that you try to get hold of a copy of "Practical Blacksmithing" by M.T.Richardson. It was originally published in the 19th century, and reissued by Weathervane Books New York in about 1978. It is a collection of work experiences by working smiths.

Incidentally, in the old days it was an acknowledged fact that not every smith could weld. It was not unusual for smiths in a particular area to sub-contract their welding work to just one man amongst them. Doing good, tight, clean welds is acknowledged as about the most difficult thing you can do. In fact, when I began to learn forge work and I stated that my intention was to weld iron, steel and nickel, I was told by many people, including my own teacher, several technical college teachers of industrial blacksmithing, the resident expert at BHP in Newcastle (BHP is an immense mining and steel producing company) that what I wanted to do was simply impossible, and I'd better forget it.

lemmythesmith · 1st October 2007, 10:14 PM

Hi Ric, what kind of meteorite is that? Is it the Nantan? Has it turned to a kind of haematite? I've seen those on E-Bay, if it was one of those just wondering if you broke it up did it have any cracks or fissures inside? Might be an interesting ukiran material. Probably a wee bit heavy though!

1st October 2007, 03:41 AM	#3
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Hello All, Here are the shots that could not be viewed on the other forum. If this and the previous message are too far outside this discussion please delete. Raw materials (crucible,steel powder,meteorite,green glass) Ingot cooking (note full safety gear..or lack ther of) Ingot of smelted meteorite steel which was fored out and welded to modern 1084 steel for contrast blade made from that billet..1600 layer twist with ivory and ebony blade detail Ric Attached Images

1st October 2007, 11:41 AM	#4
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Forging Thank you Alan, From each of your answers, I learn a lot. I print them and make a file out of them. Invaluable. How do they call these experts in Japan : living treasure ? I do not recall the exact name. This is what you are for me. thanks a lot. Hi Richard, You are indeed well equipped in your workshop and produce well made tools. In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials. What exactly is "crucible" ? Why do you put green glass in your forging process ? You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ? What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ? Regards Michel

30th September 2007, 11:51 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Michel, my striker has at various times been one of my sons, my wife, or myself---with wife or son holding the tongs. Couple of times it has been people I've been teaching at the time.I have never had mechanical assistance. My hold-down tool is a gooseneck that fits in the pritchel hole. You stick the billet under it, whack the bend in the gooseneck, which drives it down tight into the hole, then whack the billet. Not particularly effective, and constantly needs reshaping, but it does work, and the job can be done with it. I was taught to forge with coal, and to weld, I had to coke the coal then weld. My teacher at that time was an oldtime blacksmith named Gordon Blackwell, and he taught me to weld by reading the fire. Depending on the type of material you are welding, when the material approaches weld heat the fire throws out different sparks. You observe the fire very closely and when you see the sparks you're looking for you take the weld. Later on I learnt a different method of testing weld heat and that is I what I have used since I learnt it, no matter if I am using coke, charcoal or gas. Make a poker out of half inch material and forge it to a point. When you feel that the material is coming into weld heat you touch the surface of the billet with the point of the poker, if it is ready to weld the surface will be just a wee bit sticky.It is best to keep the poker warm by passing it high through the flames. You do not take it wet out of the tub and try to test with it. I have never used colour as an indicator for welding, it can be too misleading, and it varies according to the light coming into the forge. The colour of a billet ready to weld that is in an enclosed smithy is significantly different to the colour of a billet ready to weld that is outside under a tree. In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

1st October 2007, 04:51 PM	#5
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Michel, In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials. What exactly is "crucible" ? -------a crucible is a ceramic container which holds the molten metal in the furnace. Why do you put green glass in your forging process ? ---------the glass is a flux which bonds with the oxides and removes them from the metal so it can melt and be free of contamination...borax is too aggressive and will eat the crucible. You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ? ------the crucible is covered (cosed system) and the glass is the flux so there is very little loss What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ? ---the steel is a modern metal powder of known chemistry so I can get a certain type of steel when I cam finished. Ric

1st October 2007, 05:56 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thank you Ric It shows that you are really making your steel at your own specifications. Impressive. I am really in an other ball game. My ideal has been to achieve some results with as little as possible equipment. I have always been impressed by the abilities of the Indonesian smiths (as an example) who work with very little equipment and almost any type of metal scrap they can find. And they heat weld ! I have still a lot to learn. Thank you for your explanations Regards Michel

1st October 2007, 09:51 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	I think that my philosophy has always been the same as yours, Michel. From the beginning , I wanted to work as close to barebones as I could. The reason I learnt how to do forge work was to prepare me for the instruction I was to recieve from Empu Suparman---I didn't want to walk in cold, knowing nothing.When you work like this, there are some severe limitations on what can be done. Using a gas forge does make things easier, but the only reason I went to gas was that I was unable to buy coke, and living in a residential area, I could not use coal. Michel, I suggest that you try to get hold of a copy of "Practical Blacksmithing" by M.T.Richardson. It was originally published in the 19th century, and reissued by Weathervane Books New York in about 1978. It is a collection of work experiences by working smiths. Incidentally, in the old days it was an acknowledged fact that not every smith could weld. It was not unusual for smiths in a particular area to sub-contract their welding work to just one man amongst them. Doing good, tight, clean welds is acknowledged as about the most difficult thing you can do. In fact, when I began to learn forge work and I stated that my intention was to weld iron, steel and nickel, I was told by many people, including my own teacher, several technical college teachers of industrial blacksmithing, the resident expert at BHP in Newcastle (BHP is an immense mining and steel producing company) that what I wanted to do was simply impossible, and I'd better forget it.

1st October 2007, 10:14 PM	#8
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Ric, what kind of meteorite is that? Is it the Nantan? Has it turned to a kind of haematite? I've seen those on E-Bay, if it was one of those just wondering if you broke it up did it have any cracks or fissures inside? Might be an interesting ukiran material. Probably a wee bit heavy though!