Decoration on Indian blades - Page 2

Jens Nordlunde · 1st February 2005, 02:23 PM

Hi Battara,

Like I write in the text to the picture, the ‘stones’ are not gems, they are glass/crystal. That is the reason why I show this picture. Had the ‘stones’ been put in recently after the old method described, and had the lead been covered with gold foil – I think it would fool a lot of people.
The hilt shown is not a fake, it is genuine, but sometimes people want more glamour than they can afford, and then methods like the one described is taken in use, or maybe the owner had some misfortune and had the real gems replaced with glass – we will never know.
To swap the gems for glass and metal foil, and to swap gold for lead with gold foil, would have saved the poor buyer a lot of money, but the show effect would have been almost as high as if it had been real gems and real gold.
The kundan technique is supposed to be almost two thousand years old, and was refine during the Mogul reign. When using the Kundan method to set gems, gold are beaten to a very thin foil, when the foil is thin enough it can form a molecular bond when pressure is applied with a tool. The foil is worked around the stone and the stone adhered in its mount.
It is true like you say, that the kundan technique usually applies to gold setting, and maybe it is called something else when lead is used, I don’t know, but I rather think that the name is used when it comes to the way the gem/glass I fastened, than to which metal is used.
I knew what I was buying, but had the hilt been ‘shined up’ a bit, it might have fooled some of you.

B.I · 1st February 2005, 02:59 PM

jens,
your honesty is very apparant in what you write

i say this because you assume the placement of glass instead on precious stone was done to save the buyer some cost. i think that the original buyer probably paid the full amount from someone who replaced the originals with costume jewellery.
the hilt is a good thing, and the channels cut into the pommel area and the base of the hilt suggest original gold inlay. inlay on a jade hilt suggest the hilt once may have held expensive stones and not ' born' with glass. a nice piece.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st February 2005, 03:36 PM

Yes, you are right, the hilt could very well have started out with a lot of gems and gold, on the other hand, none of us know the reason why it ended up like this, but I don't think the way it looks is newly made

.

Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 12:35 PM

Here is the answer on Jeff's question about the eyes.
'The sword you are asking is in the collection of Malbork Caste. The hilt is of copper covered with gold. Indian origin. The eyes are of blue saffires, cabochon cut in the form of a small cone.'
Thank you to Mr. Lech Kobylinski for the answer.

B.I · 23rd February 2005, 02:00 PM

hi jens,
do you have direct contact with Lech Kobylinski?
i thought to track him down years ago concerning a reference he made to an obscure 16thC miniature, which he mentioned without the location or possible pulication. this would be very helpful for one line of my research if you did.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 03:21 PM

Brian, I have sent you a PM.

Jeff, notichat he writes about the cutting of the stones - it does not say me anything, maybe you know what kind of cutting it is.

Jeff D · 23rd February 2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jeff, notichat he writes about the cutting of the stones - it does not say me anything, maybe you know what kind of cutting it is.

Hi Jens,

Nope, it doesn't mean a thing to me but I am sure it makes sense to a jeweler.

Thanks again
Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 04:09 PM

Right Jeff, have a look at this.
What is a Cabochon Cut Stone?
They are the type of cut rounded on the top with flat bottom
Example: Star Ruby, Opal, Star Sapphire.

Otherwise try Google and write Cabochon - you will get about 274'000 pages, so I would try it over a week end

.

Be ware of the fitting.

Good luck

Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 05:01 PM

Come to think of it Jeff, maybe you should take an evening course in gem cutting, then you would learn how to do it

Jens

Jeff D · 24th February 2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Come to think of it Jeff, maybe you should take an evening course in gem cutting, then you would learn how to do it

Jens

With the NHL on strike this year I do have some spare time. However, I am not brave enough to tell my wife that I want to take up another hobby. I think I will stay with the first plan it will probably save my life.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2015, 04:19 PM

Battara,
I do answer late on this one - sorry, but here I am :-).

The dagger with 'kundan' shown, is an example of how they sometimes tried to fool buyers. The original gold/gems have been stripped off, and likely sold for scrap value.
What you then do is, to take some coloured metal foil and glue it where the gems have been. then you take some glass/crystal pieces of the right size, place them on the foil, take some soft metal, in this case lead and hammer it around the 'gem', and at last you take a very thing gold foil and cover the lead. In the end you have an 'almost kundan' decorated dagger hilt.

Battara · 30th November 2015, 12:20 AM

Thank you Jens. It would appear that even the forger's art takes skill!

1st February 2005, 02:23 PM	#31
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Battara, Like I write in the text to the picture, the ‘stones’ are not gems, they are glass/crystal. That is the reason why I show this picture. Had the ‘stones’ been put in recently after the old method described, and had the lead been covered with gold foil – I think it would fool a lot of people. The hilt shown is not a fake, it is genuine, but sometimes people want more glamour than they can afford, and then methods like the one described is taken in use, or maybe the owner had some misfortune and had the real gems replaced with glass – we will never know. To swap the gems for glass and metal foil, and to swap gold for lead with gold foil, would have saved the poor buyer a lot of money, but the show effect would have been almost as high as if it had been real gems and real gold. The kundan technique is supposed to be almost two thousand years old, and was refine during the Mogul reign. When using the Kundan method to set gems, gold are beaten to a very thin foil, when the foil is thin enough it can form a molecular bond when pressure is applied with a tool. The foil is worked around the stone and the stone adhered in its mount. It is true like you say, that the kundan technique usually applies to gold setting, and maybe it is called something else when lead is used, I don’t know, but I rather think that the name is used when it comes to the way the gem/glass I fastened, than to which metal is used. I knew what I was buying, but had the hilt been ‘shined up’ a bit, it might have fooled some of you.

1st February 2005, 02:59 PM	#32
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jens, your honesty is very apparant in what you write i say this because you assume the placement of glass instead on precious stone was done to save the buyer some cost. i think that the original buyer probably paid the full amount from someone who replaced the originals with costume jewellery. the hilt is a good thing, and the channels cut into the pommel area and the base of the hilt suggest original gold inlay. inlay on a jade hilt suggest the hilt once may have held expensive stones and not ' born' with glass. a nice piece.

1st February 2005, 03:36 PM	#33
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Yes, you are right, the hilt could very well have started out with a lot of gems and gold, on the other hand, none of us know the reason why it ended up like this, but I don't think the way it looks is newly made . Jens

23rd February 2005, 12:35 PM	#34
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Here is the answer on Jeff's question about the eyes. 'The sword you are asking is in the collection of Malbork Caste. The hilt is of copper covered with gold. Indian origin. The eyes are of blue saffires, cabochon cut in the form of a small cone.' Thank you to Mr. Lech Kobylinski for the answer.

23rd February 2005, 02:00 PM	#35
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, do you have direct contact with Lech Kobylinski? i thought to track him down years ago concerning a reference he made to an obscure 16thC miniature, which he mentioned without the location or possible pulication. this would be very helpful for one line of my research if you did.

23rd February 2005, 03:21 PM	#36
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Brian, I have sent you a PM. Jeff, notichat he writes about the cutting of the stones - it does not say me anything, maybe you know what kind of cutting it is.

23rd February 2005, 04:09 PM	#38
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Right Jeff, have a look at this. What is a Cabochon Cut Stone? They are the type of cut rounded on the top with flat bottom Example: Star Ruby, Opal, Star Sapphire. Otherwise try Google and write Cabochon - you will get about 274'000 pages, so I would try it over a week end . Be ware of the fitting. Good luck Jens

23rd February 2005, 05:01 PM	#39
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Come to think of it Jeff, maybe you should take an evening course in gem cutting, then you would learn how to do it Jens

27th November 2015, 04:19 PM	#41
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Battara, I do answer late on this one - sorry, but here I am :-). The dagger with 'kundan' shown, is an example of how they sometimes tried to fool buyers. The original gold/gems have been stripped off, and likely sold for scrap value. What you then do is, to take some coloured metal foil and glue it where the gems have been. then you take some glass/crystal pieces of the right size, place them on the foil, take some soft metal, in this case lead and hammer it around the 'gem', and at last you take a very thing gold foil and cover the lead. In the end you have an 'almost kundan' decorated dagger hilt.

30th November 2015, 12:20 AM	#42
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you Jens. It would appear that even the forger's art takes skill!