old keris for comments

JamesKelly · 29th April 2014, 08:58 PM

Long a gun collector, I bought my first keris last year. Wonderful information from this group & I am very aware of my complete ignorance of this area. Yes, I am told that it is the blade, not the mountings, that matters in a keris, still I just could not pass up this carving at the last Michigan show.

The story that came with it was "somebody's Uncle brought it back from the Philippines after WWII"

Rick · 29th April 2014, 11:26 PM

Looks like a fairly decent Bali blade in the archetypical 'Balinese Tourist Dress' .
The carving though is 'quick and dirty' for Balinese work .

David · 29th April 2014, 11:38 PM

Hi James. Do you want the good news or the bad first?

OK, the bad first then. Frankly, the part you just could not pass up on this keris is probably the worst part of your ensemble. This type of dress is often associated with the infamous "Bali tourist keris", a beast which isn't truly a keris at all as it is made from a cutout blank (not pattern welded) and has pamor pattern lines painted onto it. The good news is that your blade is not one of these tourist blades. Yours looks genuine and it appears to have some age. Unfortunately it appears that at some time well after this keris was forged someone got it in there head that it would be more valuable if it had more features (ricikan) and added what are called sogokan, the two grooves on each side at the base of the blade that look like blood grooves. More unfortunately, they did a really poor job of it as well and it kind of ruins the blade for me. I am alway confused as to why people can't just leave well enough alone and not attempt to modify these things after the fact. While this was never a masterful blade it was at least an honest one before the alteration.
As wood carvings go, for this part of the world this dress is rather mediocre (though i have seen worse) and are turned out rather quickly. This may have come from somebody's Uncle who had been in the Philippines, but the keris is Balinese and an Indonesian form, not like the Moro kris swords of the Philippines. It certainly came here "after WWII", but also just as certainly it was waaaaay after WWII. This style of dress didn't really develop until much later, maybe the 1960s at the earliest and i would judge this dress later than that. We do regularly see old blades (instead of the tourist "keris like objects") dressed in this style as dealers find old blades w/o sheaths and need to dress them cheaply for sale.
I realize that was probably not what you were hoping to hear, but if you didn't spend too much on this you could have done much worse for your first keris. Many of us have.

Rick · 29th April 2014, 11:49 PM

Good point about the added features to the blade .
I missed that being, I guess, distracted by the dress myself or not .. .

I encourage James to persevere; better finds lay uncharted yet .

Sometimes less is more .

JamesKelly · 29th April 2014, 11:53 PM

Thank you both.

Just like with antique guns, one must, I believe, personally handle and examine many of these objects, along with reading what is available, before being able to make a decent purchase.

I didn't spend much on this one & can probably get the $ back. It is a relatively inexpensive step in my education.

Hmmm. . . been doing this since 1951 with old muskets . . . wonder if I've time to learn catch-up with blades? Well, it keeps the synapses firing.

By the way, collectors/dealers destroy many an old firearm with much the same mentality as used on this keris blade. Got a fine old model 1816 Springfield musket dated 1817 at the same show, would be even finer if some genius hadn't removed that ugly old prickly raised walnut grain with his fine steel wool. Even respected dealers will scrape off patina so one may more readily read the serial number.

Doubt that I will ever be a smart keris collector.
Also doubt that I can leave them alone now.

A. G. Maisey · 30th April 2014, 08:36 PM

Very often when we find a feature added to a keris at some time after its manufacture, we form the opinion that this has been done to increase its saleability. In many cases this is true, but there are numerous cases where it is not true, or may not be true.

In the case of James' keris it is my opinion that it is extremely unlikely that the sogokan were added for any commercial reason, but rather because of religious belief.

The symbolism attached to the sogokan is that it is an icon of Siwa (Shiva). It is an upwards pointing triangle that first appeared in the early keris (Keris Buda) when Jawa was still dominated by the Hindu-Buddhist faith known as Jawa-Hindu. After the Jawa-Hindu faith was replaced by Islam, this faith was taken to Bali, along with the Javanese people who migrated to Bali during the years prior to the collapse of Majapahit, and especially towards the end of the Majapahit era. In Bali the old religion of Jawa evolved into the Bali-Hindu faith.

In fact, pre-Islamic Jawa-Bali probably should be viewed as a nexus, rather than as two separate entities, so probably it is incorrect of me to say that the faith was taken to Bali, rather it very probably formed a part of Balinese culture and society from around the time of its appearance in Jawa, but it remained alive and vibrant in Bali, after it was replaced in Jawa by Islam.

The features that we find in a keris are not just haphazard curlicues that have been added for ornamentation or personal adornment, these features are a language of symbols that must be read according to the religious and societal conditions that prevailed in Jawa when they began to appear in the blades of early keris. The upwards pointing triangle is one such symbol, and it symbolises Siwa.

I am of the opinion that one of the previous owners of James' keris carved these rudimentary sogokan into this blade as a symbol of Siwa. It is a Balinese blade, it is a blade with some age. Until quite recently it seems probable that knowledge of the ancient symbolism locked into the keris blade was understood by some Balinese people. I believe that a previous owner of James' keris was one of these people.

David · 30th April 2014, 10:39 PM

Thanks Alan, that's a very viable alternative. For what ever reason though i do wish that it had been added with more craft, though if your theory is correct i am sure that the symbolism of the addition would probably trump art.

Rick · 30th April 2014, 11:39 PM

The logic seems to be there Alan; these details are likely not what would strike a tourist at first inspection .

The dress and pamor however, would .

29th April 2014, 08:58 PM	#1
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	old keris for comments Long a gun collector, I bought my first keris last year. Wonderful information from this group & I am very aware of my complete ignorance of this area. Yes, I am told that it is the blade, not the mountings, that matters in a keris, still I just could not pass up this carving at the last Michigan show. The story that came with it was "somebody's Uncle brought it back from the Philippines after WWII" Attached Images

29th April 2014, 11:26 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Looks like a fairly decent Bali blade in the archetypical 'Balinese Tourist Dress' . The carving though is 'quick and dirty' for Balinese work .

29th April 2014, 11:38 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,029	Hi James. Do you want the good news or the bad first? OK, the bad first then. Frankly, the part you just could not pass up on this keris is probably the worst part of your ensemble. This type of dress is often associated with the infamous "Bali tourist keris", a beast which isn't truly a keris at all as it is made from a cutout blank (not pattern welded) and has pamor pattern lines painted onto it. The good news is that your blade is not one of these tourist blades. Yours looks genuine and it appears to have some age. Unfortunately it appears that at some time well after this keris was forged someone got it in there head that it would be more valuable if it had more features (ricikan) and added what are called sogokan, the two grooves on each side at the base of the blade that look like blood grooves. More unfortunately, they did a really poor job of it as well and it kind of ruins the blade for me. I am alway confused as to why people can't just leave well enough alone and not attempt to modify these things after the fact. While this was never a masterful blade it was at least an honest one before the alteration. As wood carvings go, for this part of the world this dress is rather mediocre (though i have seen worse) and are turned out rather quickly. This may have come from somebody's Uncle who had been in the Philippines, but the keris is Balinese and an Indonesian form, not like the Moro kris swords of the Philippines. It certainly came here "after WWII", but also just as certainly it was waaaaay after WWII. This style of dress didn't really develop until much later, maybe the 1960s at the earliest and i would judge this dress later than that. We do regularly see old blades (instead of the tourist "keris like objects") dressed in this style as dealers find old blades w/o sheaths and need to dress them cheaply for sale. I realize that was probably not what you were hoping to hear, but if you didn't spend too much on this you could have done much worse for your first keris. Many of us have.

29th April 2014, 11:49 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Good point about the added features to the blade . I missed that being, I guess, distracted by the dress myself or not .. . I encourage James to persevere; better finds lay uncharted yet . Sometimes less is more .

29th April 2014, 11:53 PM	#5
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Thank you both. Just like with antique guns, one must, I believe, personally handle and examine many of these objects, along with reading what is available, before being able to make a decent purchase. I didn't spend much on this one & can probably get the $ back. It is a relatively inexpensive step in my education. Hmmm. . . been doing this since 1951 with old muskets . . . wonder if I've time to learn catch-up with blades? Well, it keeps the synapses firing. By the way, collectors/dealers destroy many an old firearm with much the same mentality as used on this keris blade. Got a fine old model 1816 Springfield musket dated 1817 at the same show, would be even finer if some genius hadn't removed that ugly old prickly raised walnut grain with his fine steel wool. Even respected dealers will scrape off patina so one may more readily read the serial number. Doubt that I will ever be a smart keris collector. Also doubt that I can leave them alone now.

30th April 2014, 08:36 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Very often when we find a feature added to a keris at some time after its manufacture, we form the opinion that this has been done to increase its saleability. In many cases this is true, but there are numerous cases where it is not true, or may not be true. In the case of James' keris it is my opinion that it is extremely unlikely that the sogokan were added for any commercial reason, but rather because of religious belief. The symbolism attached to the sogokan is that it is an icon of Siwa (Shiva). It is an upwards pointing triangle that first appeared in the early keris (Keris Buda) when Jawa was still dominated by the Hindu-Buddhist faith known as Jawa-Hindu. After the Jawa-Hindu faith was replaced by Islam, this faith was taken to Bali, along with the Javanese people who migrated to Bali during the years prior to the collapse of Majapahit, and especially towards the end of the Majapahit era. In Bali the old religion of Jawa evolved into the Bali-Hindu faith. In fact, pre-Islamic Jawa-Bali probably should be viewed as a nexus, rather than as two separate entities, so probably it is incorrect of me to say that the faith was taken to Bali, rather it very probably formed a part of Balinese culture and society from around the time of its appearance in Jawa, but it remained alive and vibrant in Bali, after it was replaced in Jawa by Islam. The features that we find in a keris are not just haphazard curlicues that have been added for ornamentation or personal adornment, these features are a language of symbols that must be read according to the religious and societal conditions that prevailed in Jawa when they began to appear in the blades of early keris. The upwards pointing triangle is one such symbol, and it symbolises Siwa. I am of the opinion that one of the previous owners of James' keris carved these rudimentary sogokan into this blade as a symbol of Siwa. It is a Balinese blade, it is a blade with some age. Until quite recently it seems probable that knowledge of the ancient symbolism locked into the keris blade was understood by some Balinese people. I believe that a previous owner of James' keris was one of these people.

30th April 2014, 10:39 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,029	Thanks Alan, that's a very viable alternative. For what ever reason though i do wish that it had been added with more craft, though if your theory is correct i am sure that the symbolism of the addition would probably trump art.

30th April 2014, 11:39 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	The logic seems to be there Alan; these details are likely not what would strike a tourist at first inspection . The dress and pamor however, would .