Long Somali Sword For Comment

Lew · 13th August 2006, 08:13 PM

Hi All

This just ended on ebay seems to be a nice one complete with scabbard

http://cgi.ebay.com/abbysinian-sword...QQcmdZViewItem

Lew

Tim Simmons · 13th August 2006, 08:20 PM

Nice one!!!!!

Flavio · 13th August 2006, 08:21 PM

Hello Lew, i'm looking at this too. Yeah, seems a very nice one, Congrats

katana · 13th August 2006, 08:59 PM

Congrats Lew, the pommel looks to be aluminium...but the blade IMHO looks to be older......perhaps re-hilted? Nice sword never the less....another one that should be in MY collection

Valjhun · 14th August 2006, 09:35 PM

Nice one Lew!

I would call it a Billao.

CharlesS · 15th August 2006, 01:33 PM

Nice one Lew, and to find complete with scabbard is no small feat! Congrats!

Lew · 24th August 2006, 03:20 AM

Hi All

The Somali sword arrived today it's a real nice one and the scabbard is in great shape just a bit of the tip of the leather near the point is undone otherwise it is intact. Here it is with it's two other brothers.

Flavio · 24th August 2006, 09:30 AM

A very beautiful piece, Lew!!! Congrats

katana · 24th August 2006, 11:14 AM

Very nice Lew,
the first sword ...is the pommel spike aluminium?

Lew · 24th August 2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Very nice Lew,
the first sword ...is the pommel spike aluminium?

I think it's aluminium but the steel tang is sandwiched into the spike some how I can see the steel coming out of the end of the spike.

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2006, 07:10 PM

A great example very nice. The grey metal on these is zinc. I have one almost identical in size shape and scabbard. Another weapon that only seems to function in the thumb and forefinger grip.

Lew · 24th August 2006, 08:00 PM

Tim

Is this a 19th century or 20th century sword?

Lew

katana · 24th August 2006, 08:08 PM

Tim, .....Wow......zinc......Now that is significant

Zinc is used as a sacrifical anode..... when fixed /attached to iron or steel it helps PREVENT RUST. Due to electrolytic action the atoms of zinc 'sacrifice' themselves preventing the formation of iron oxide. The two metals have to be in contact. Lew mentioned the tang (iron/steel) passes through the pommel (zinc) therefor contact with each other is insured.

One question is ....was this effect 'learned' from outside Africa, or did they discover this themselves......or possibly...and highly unlikely (IMHO) that these two metals usage was just coincidental.

If this effect was known.....then you could summise that having a sword that 'does not rust' would be highly regarded ....perhaps even endowed with 'magical powers'.......bearing in mind the spiritual significance of blacksmiths and iron (in Africa) A substance that could 'protect' the revered iron..must have been seen as very 'powerful medicine'.

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2006, 08:27 PM

Hi David,
I know nothing of the qualities of zinc that you mention. The blade of mine has had some rust. Zinc has been been used as a decorative white metal in the east for a very long time. People have a tendancy to think zinc is a modern western metal.

ariel · 24th August 2006, 08:48 PM

Electrochemists to the rescue!
How would the presence of a zinc pommel with a tang passing through it affect the ability of oxygen to attack iron at the tip of the sword? Surely, zinc molecules do not travel along the blade. If this were so, why do we use time consuming and expensive zinc plating instead of just attaching a lump of zinc somewhere at the periphery?

katana · 24th August 2006, 08:50 PM

The 'sacrifical anode' effect is used on many maritime structures and ships ...Zinc primer (paint) has excellent rust preventative qualities. Zinc protects the iron by cathodic protection, since it is higher on the electrochemical scale than iron and will sacrifice itself to protect the iron, reducing it to the metal and eliminating rust. This phenomenon was noted by Faraday in 1829. If it sacrifices too much, however, the iron is exposed to oxidation, as is sometimes seen with old or damaged galvanized iron.
The purity of the zinc would be important and directly proportional to its effect.....the more pure..the more powerful. This power comes at a price... as its action is stronger (more reactive), it is quicker to be 'used up' and looses mass more rapidly.
If the pommel is pure zinc, it would be highly likely that the sword would have had the pommel replaced several times ...because over a period of time the pommel would have gradually 'melted away'.
I can only assume the pommel is a zinc alloy.... as Lew's and your example have clean, smooth pommels, showing little deteriation.

Africa, has very few mines and produces little zinc (globably).... Zinc would be in very short supply locally.......but the trade routes from India and the Arab states would have made it more accessable.

Hi Ariel, I'm suggesting that in certain climates, with high humidity, condensation forming on the blade would act as a carrier of ions between metals. The effect would most certainly be strongest at the point of contact.
I had a speedboat, the outboard motor made of aluminium, it had a zinc 'scarifial anode' shaped like a fin bolted to it (2 functions..1 item) This zinc 'fin' gradually 'wears' away as it sacrifies itself protecting the motor.

Trim Tab Kit BF25-BF50
Sacrificial anode metal protects the engine from corrosion.

3700952 - $13.59

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2006, 08:53 PM

One has to be very careful about this zinc-aluminium thing. Some years ago I lost a very good kaskara because I was unaware of the use of zinc. Being badgered into believing the fittings were aluminium thus 20th cent, i let it go for peanuts. Once bitten twice shy. Dull it can look like aluminium, polished it can also pass as silver. So watch out!

katana · 24th August 2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

One has to be very careful about this zinc-aluminium thing. Some years ago I lost a very good kaskara because I was unaware of the use of zinc. Being badgered into believing the fittings were aluminium thus 20th cent, i let it go for peanuts. Once bitten twice shy. Dull it can look like aluminium, polished it can also pass as silver. So watch out!

Thanks Tim, sounds like good advice

katana · 24th August 2006, 10:07 PM

Been checking the properties of zinc.....

Stability and Reactivity Comments:
Zinc metal is normally coated with a protective layer of zinc carbonate, which forms in air in the presence of carbon dioxide and moisture, resulting in a low corrosion rate.

On that basis both the pommels could indeed be ..a higher purity of Zinc ..because of the protective layer preventing the interaction of iron/zinc.

It would seem that the sacrifical anode effect can only occur when both metals are immersed in water, this ...quite likely...prevents the carbonate layer forming....leaving the more reactive zinc exposed.
So I have to conclude that even in humid conditions, the zinc pommel would have a carbonate layer develop, preventing the interaction with the iron/steel.

My theory would only work if you constantly used it underwater........
now.....did the African's invent the aqua-lung

Lew · 24th August 2006, 10:16 PM

Good point unfortunately Solmalia is mostly desert

Unless these are used by Somali frogmen and these are their diving knives

Lew

katana · 24th August 2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Unless these are used by Somali frogmen and these are their diving knives

Lew

Are you sure theres no water?..... they do 'SURF' the dunes......

ariel · 24th August 2006, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Are you sure theres no water?..... they do 'SURF' the dunes......

Where is he hiding his Billao? Must be a really small one...

13th August 2006, 08:13 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Long Somali Sword For Comment Hi All This just ended on ebay seems to be a nice one complete with scabbard http://cgi.ebay.com/abbysinian-sword...QQcmdZViewItem Lew

24th August 2006, 03:20 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Somali Trio Hi All The Somali sword arrived today it's a real nice one and the scabbard is in great shape just a bit of the tip of the leather near the point is undone otherwise it is intact. Here it is with it's two other brothers. Attached Images

24th August 2006, 08:27 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Hi David, I know nothing of the qualities of zinc that you mention. The blade of mine has had some rust. Zinc has been been used as a decorative white metal in the east for a very long time. People have a tendancy to think zinc is a modern western metal. Attached Images

24th August 2006, 08:50 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The 'sacrifical anode' effect is used on many maritime structures and ships ...Zinc primer (paint) has excellent rust preventative qualities. Zinc protects the iron by cathodic protection, since it is higher on the electrochemical scale than iron and will sacrifice itself to protect the iron, reducing it to the metal and eliminating rust. This phenomenon was noted by Faraday in 1829. If it sacrifices too much, however, the iron is exposed to oxidation, as is sometimes seen with old or damaged galvanized iron. The purity of the zinc would be important and directly proportional to its effect.....the more pure..the more powerful. This power comes at a price... as its action is stronger (more reactive), it is quicker to be 'used up' and looses mass more rapidly. If the pommel is pure zinc, it would be highly likely that the sword would have had the pommel replaced several times ...because over a period of time the pommel would have gradually 'melted away'. I can only assume the pommel is a zinc alloy.... as Lew's and your example have clean, smooth pommels, showing little deteriation. Africa, has very few mines and produces little zinc (globably).... Zinc would be in very short supply locally.......but the trade routes from India and the Arab states would have made it more accessable. Hi Ariel, I'm suggesting that in certain climates, with high humidity, condensation forming on the blade would act as a carrier of ions between metals. The effect would most certainly be strongest at the point of contact. I had a speedboat, the outboard motor made of aluminium, it had a zinc 'scarifial anode' shaped like a fin bolted to it (2 functions..1 item) This zinc 'fin' gradually 'wears' away as it sacrifies itself protecting the motor. Trim Tab Kit BF25-BF50 Sacrificial anode metal protects the engine from corrosion. 3700952 - $13.59 Attached Images Last edited by katana; 24th August 2006 at 09:05 PM.

13th August 2006, 08:20 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Nice one!!!!!

13th August 2006, 08:21 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Lew, i'm looking at this too. Yeah, seems a very nice one, Congrats

13th August 2006, 08:59 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Congrats Lew, the pommel looks to be aluminium...but the blade IMHO looks to be older......perhaps re-hilted? Nice sword never the less....another one that should be in MY collection

14th August 2006, 09:35 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Nice one Lew! I would call it a Billao.

15th August 2006, 01:33 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Nice one Lew, and to find complete with scabbard is no small feat! Congrats!

24th August 2006, 09:30 AM	#8
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	A very beautiful piece, Lew!!! Congrats

24th August 2006, 11:14 AM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Very nice Lew, the first sword ...is the pommel spike aluminium?

24th August 2006, 07:10 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	A great example very nice. The grey metal on these is zinc. I have one almost identical in size shape and scabbard. Another weapon that only seems to function in the thumb and forefinger grip.

24th August 2006, 08:00 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim Is this a 19th century or 20th century sword? Lew

24th August 2006, 08:08 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Tim, .....Wow......zinc......Now that is significant Zinc is used as a sacrifical anode..... when fixed /attached to iron or steel it helps PREVENT RUST. Due to electrolytic action the atoms of zinc 'sacrifice' themselves preventing the formation of iron oxide. The two metals have to be in contact. Lew mentioned the tang (iron/steel) passes through the pommel (zinc) therefor contact with each other is insured. One question is ....was this effect 'learned' from outside Africa, or did they discover this themselves......or possibly...and highly unlikely (IMHO) that these two metals usage was just coincidental. If this effect was known.....then you could summise that having a sword that 'does not rust' would be highly regarded ....perhaps even endowed with 'magical powers'.......bearing in mind the spiritual significance of blacksmiths and iron (in Africa) A substance that could 'protect' the revered iron..must have been seen as very 'powerful medicine'.

24th August 2006, 08:48 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Electrochemists to the rescue! How would the presence of a zinc pommel with a tang passing through it affect the ability of oxygen to attack iron at the tip of the sword? Surely, zinc molecules do not travel along the blade. If this were so, why do we use time consuming and expensive zinc plating instead of just attaching a lump of zinc somewhere at the periphery?

24th August 2006, 08:53 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	One has to be very careful about this zinc-aluminium thing. Some years ago I lost a very good kaskara because I was unaware of the use of zinc. Being badgered into believing the fittings were aluminium thus 20th cent, i let it go for peanuts. Once bitten twice shy. Dull it can look like aluminium, polished it can also pass as silver. So watch out!

24th August 2006, 10:07 PM	#19
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Been checking the properties of zinc..... Stability and Reactivity Comments: Zinc metal is normally coated with a protective layer of zinc carbonate, which forms in air in the presence of carbon dioxide and moisture, resulting in a low corrosion rate. On that basis both the pommels could indeed be ..a higher purity of Zinc ..because of the protective layer preventing the interaction of iron/zinc. It would seem that the sacrifical anode effect can only occur when both metals are immersed in water, this ...quite likely...prevents the carbonate layer forming....leaving the more reactive zinc exposed. So I have to conclude that even in humid conditions, the zinc pommel would have a carbonate layer develop, preventing the interaction with the iron/steel. My theory would only work if you constantly used it underwater........ now.....did the African's invent the aqua-lung

24th August 2006, 10:16 PM	#20
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Good point unfortunately Solmalia is mostly desert Unless these are used by Somali frogmen and these are their diving knives Lew