Dirk?

RobT · 27th January 2008, 11:21 PM

Hi All,
My wife is partial to triangular blades so this one followed us home. I'm curious as to what you all make of it. To me it looks western. US civil war naval dirk perhaps? (The condition looks too good to be US Revolution but maybe it has just been well kept.) The triangular blade measures 16.75" (42.5cm) long, .75" (1.9cm) wide and 3/8" (.952cm) high at the crossguard. Two brass pins secure the 3 5/8" (9.2cm) bone hilt to the fully enclosed tang. The crossguard and butt cap are both of brass. It appears that the tang pierces the butt cap and has been filed and polished flush with it. Perhaps the cap was heat fitted to the end of the tang? Western stuff is way out of my area so I'm hoping you all can provide the information.
Sincerely,
RobT

M ELEY · 29th January 2008, 08:32 AM

Hmmm... As I stated in another post, I'm a collector of nautical Western items pre-1820. It does have the general appearance of a naval dirk from the blade and crossguard standpoint. I have one with a similar blade. The crossguard,hilt and pommel piece are not of the early 19th century, so Civil War is still a possibility. The blade looks older, though, making me wonder if this is a composite piece made with an older blade in newer fittings. Naval dirks fell out of favor shortly after the Fighting Sail era (1840's), but there are some reports that Confederate sailors still carried some. This isn't my area of expertise, but this might be one of these. I know it wasn't an "issued" piece in any case, as were the British midshipman's daggers of the earlier period.

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2008, 03:46 PM

Actually I think that is exactly your area of expertise! and its good to see you posting again!!

I also am inclined to agree with your assessment on this piece, especially that it is probably composite, which is of course typical of Confederate edged weapons of the Civil War, and supporting the plausibility of that suggestion. The interesting ivory (or bone) grip is naturally supportive of this. I've seen numerous swords and various edged weapons of this period which had been regulation weapons, and were refurbished with interesting grips with bone and ivory. I can recall one very nice M1840 NCO sword I had (many moons ago

) which had been mounted with a beautiful bone grip. Whether it was captured and reworked by a Confederate soldier is anyones guess, but it certainly wasn't done for continued wear by a Union NCO.
The Confederate edged weapons of the Civil War are in many, if not most cases, anomalies that are specially furbished or one off cases using the components of other weapons that become variations of certain types or forms. The huge Confederate 'bowies' are an example, and these in many instances turn out to be various incarnations of 'espada ancha' from Mexico.

The best reference I can think of that might have some lead on dirks of this general form would probably be "Boarders Away" by William Gilkerson.

All the best,
Jim

RobT · 30th January 2008, 01:22 AM

To M ELEY and Jim Mcdougall,
Thanks for the information. I will have to try to look into that Gilkerson book. I'm pretty sure the hilt is bone (the seller was also). There are some dark porous areas by the butt cap (on the side not shown) that alas, speak strongly for bone. It's pretty old bone though, with a nice mellow buttery patina and a sensuously smooth finish. On closer examination it appears to me that the cross guard was made in a two part mold with the sprews at the end of the quillons.
Sincerely,
RobT

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2008, 01:31 AM

You're very welcome Rob, very nice piece that appears to have some quite interesting historical possibilities. As I noted in my post, Mark's assessment was pretty much right on target as near as I can tell, and he has focused on these types of weapons for some time. The Gilkerson book is great as it is one of the first books addressing maritime weapons that extends as far as not only American weapons, but to the Civil War and later.

Prior to this book, the best book including American weapons earlier has always been G.Neumann "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution".

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 30th January 2008, 02:33 AM

Jim, thanks for the kind words and welcome! It's good to be back (I did pop in from time to time, though). Excellent observation on the bone/ivory hilt. Of course this feature bears mentioning or, although it doesn't absolutely establish naval use, it is an extremely common feature to these dirks. Rob, don't be upset if it does turn out to be bone and not ivory. This material is far more likely to be what the average Confederate would have been able to get hi hands on. The crossguard/fennials bothered me at first with their slightly modern "sink knob" look. Then I remembered seeing a British piece with a rather ridiculous-looking crosspiece resembling flattened spoons! Here's a French piece, I think you'll see the similarities to yours -
www.antiqueswords.com/fnd1.htm
So...I stick by my (our) assessment. Rob, you can also check out Naval Swords by P.G.W. Annis ( 8 examples/pics of earlier styles, but same patterns), Naval Swords and Firearms by May/National Maritime Museum press and Navies of the American Revolution by Preston,Lyon, and Batchelor. Gilkerson's book, as Jim suggested, is an excellent resource.

27th January 2008, 11:21 PM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 456	Dirk? Hi All, My wife is partial to triangular blades so this one followed us home. I'm curious as to what you all make of it. To me it looks western. US civil war naval dirk perhaps? (The condition looks too good to be US Revolution but maybe it has just been well kept.) The triangular blade measures 16.75" (42.5cm) long, .75" (1.9cm) wide and 3/8" (.952cm) high at the crossguard. Two brass pins secure the 3 5/8" (9.2cm) bone hilt to the fully enclosed tang. The crossguard and butt cap are both of brass. It appears that the tang pierces the butt cap and has been filed and polished flush with it. Perhaps the cap was heat fitted to the end of the tang? Western stuff is way out of my area so I'm hoping you all can provide the information. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

30th January 2008, 01:22 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 456	Thanks for the info To M ELEY and Jim Mcdougall, Thanks for the information. I will have to try to look into that Gilkerson book. I'm pretty sure the hilt is bone (the seller was also). There are some dark porous areas by the butt cap (on the side not shown) that alas, speak strongly for bone. It's pretty old bone though, with a nice mellow buttery patina and a sensuously smooth finish. On closer examination it appears to me that the cross guard was made in a two part mold with the sprews at the end of the quillons. Sincerely, RobT

29th January 2008, 08:32 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	Hmmm... As I stated in another post, I'm a collector of nautical Western items pre-1820. It does have the general appearance of a naval dirk from the blade and crossguard standpoint. I have one with a similar blade. The crossguard,hilt and pommel piece are not of the early 19th century, so Civil War is still a possibility. The blade looks older, though, making me wonder if this is a composite piece made with an older blade in newer fittings. Naval dirks fell out of favor shortly after the Fighting Sail era (1840's), but there are some reports that Confederate sailors still carried some. This isn't my area of expertise, but this might be one of these. I know it wasn't an "issued" piece in any case, as were the British midshipman's daggers of the earlier period.

29th January 2008, 03:46 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,771	Actually I think that is exactly your area of expertise! and its good to see you posting again!! I also am inclined to agree with your assessment on this piece, especially that it is probably composite, which is of course typical of Confederate edged weapons of the Civil War, and supporting the plausibility of that suggestion. The interesting ivory (or bone) grip is naturally supportive of this. I've seen numerous swords and various edged weapons of this period which had been regulation weapons, and were refurbished with interesting grips with bone and ivory. I can recall one very nice M1840 NCO sword I had (many moons ago ) which had been mounted with a beautiful bone grip. Whether it was captured and reworked by a Confederate soldier is anyones guess, but it certainly wasn't done for continued wear by a Union NCO. The Confederate edged weapons of the Civil War are in many, if not most cases, anomalies that are specially furbished or one off cases using the components of other weapons that become variations of certain types or forms. The huge Confederate 'bowies' are an example, and these in many instances turn out to be various incarnations of 'espada ancha' from Mexico. The best reference I can think of that might have some lead on dirks of this general form would probably be "Boarders Away" by William Gilkerson. All the best, Jim

30th January 2008, 01:31 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,771	You're very welcome Rob, very nice piece that appears to have some quite interesting historical possibilities. As I noted in my post, Mark's assessment was pretty much right on target as near as I can tell, and he has focused on these types of weapons for some time. The Gilkerson book is great as it is one of the first books addressing maritime weapons that extends as far as not only American weapons, but to the Civil War and later. Prior to this book, the best book including American weapons earlier has always been G.Neumann "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution". All best regards, Jim

30th January 2008, 02:33 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	Jim, thanks for the kind words and welcome! It's good to be back (I did pop in from time to time, though). Excellent observation on the bone/ivory hilt. Of course this feature bears mentioning or, although it doesn't absolutely establish naval use, it is an extremely common feature to these dirks. Rob, don't be upset if it does turn out to be bone and not ivory. This material is far more likely to be what the average Confederate would have been able to get hi hands on. The crossguard/fennials bothered me at first with their slightly modern "sink knob" look. Then I remembered seeing a British piece with a rather ridiculous-looking crosspiece resembling flattened spoons! Here's a French piece, I think you'll see the similarities to yours - www.antiqueswords.com/fnd1.htm So...I stick by my (our) assessment. Rob, you can also check out Naval Swords by P.G.W. Annis ( 8 examples/pics of earlier styles, but same patterns), Naval Swords and Firearms by May/National Maritime Museum press and Navies of the American Revolution by Preston,Lyon, and Batchelor. Gilkerson's book, as Jim suggested, is an excellent resource.