A little polish in the time of COVID

mariusgmioc · 23rd September 2020, 03:06 PM

From all I can see in the photos, the blade seems to have some watering structure like some 19th century wootz. Regarding the dotted markings, I also believe they are most likely from tightening the blade in a vice.

The shape of the blade looks like a Persian Qama but the shape of the hilt is more Caucasian. The example posted by Conduit has a more "Persian-looking" hilt.

However, let us remember that until 19th century much of the Caucasus area was part of Persia, so many times there is very difficult to distinguish between regions and styles in the area.

Also let us not forget that Qama and Kindjal are different names for the same weapon. More exactly, the very same weapon that is called "KINDJAL" in Russia and Daghestan, is called "QAMA" in Iran and Georgia.

For etching, Nital 4% is probably the best choice. It gives higher contrast than Ferric Chloride, is less messy (as it does not stain yellow everything that comes into contact with) and is less prone to rusting.
However, Ferric Chloride is not that bad and it can be successfully used instead of Nital. I used both.

Interested Party · 24th September 2020, 05:28 PM

Marius, thanks for the feedback. It looked to me like that was a possibility, but it is hard sometimes to make an objective judgement on a subjective subject especially when you own the item in question. As wootz kindjals are rare I assumed it was wishful thinking on my part.

Odd vice mistake. I guess a lot of people don't use wood or copper jaws to save the item they are working on. the original restoration was very sloppy.

Is the differential tempering a contraindication to wootz?

Conduit, are you planning to clean your qama to see what is underneath? I would linseed the handles. It would make them happy

GePi · 25th September 2020, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

For etching, Nital 4% is probably the best choice. It gives higher contrast than Ferric Chloride, is less messy (as it does not stain yellow everything that comes into contact with) and is less prone to rusting.
However, Ferric Chloride is not that bad and it can be successfully used instead of Nital. I used both.

Can you source nital in the Netherlands as a private person? Here in Germany I have been trying to buy it several times, but not been able to without being associated with a lab.

bobi13 · 25th September 2020, 11:22 AM

For etching, Nital 4% is probably the best choice. It gives higher contrast than Ferric Chloride, is less messy (as it does not stain yellow everything that comes into contact with) and is less prone to rusting.
However, Ferric Chloride is not that bad and it can be successfully used instead of Nital. I used both.[/QUOTE]

Hi mariusgmioc
How to make etching with natal 4% ?

mariusgmioc · 25th September 2020, 04:33 PM

Unfortunately, I do not know any source of Nital available for individual use in Europe.

I used to get my Nital from THE ETCHANT STORE in the US.

Several years ago, I could order it and have it shipped directly to the Netherlands.
A few years ago, they changed the policy and shipped only to the US and Canada, so I had to ask a fellow forum member from the US to be kind enough to re-ship it to me.
Now, they do not serve private individuals anymore and I was not able to order from them.

Now, I switched to Ferric Chloride, but I am not happy with the change. I am still looking for a source of Nital in Europe.
Meanwhile, I either use Ferric (which I hate), or send the blades to a friend of mine here in the Netherlands who does the etching with a nitric based solution (similar to Nital). He is also a very skilled with various types of repairs.

At the time I was able to order from the US, I would combine equal parts of Nital 3% with Nital 5% to get Nital 4%, which I found to work better.

How did I use the Nital for etching?! See the link below (with the observation that I got best etching results with a surface polished to about 2000 grit):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732

PS: I am not very familiar with the metallurgy of wootz so I do not know about differential tempering of wootz.
However, I certainly did not hear about the use of differential tempering on wootz blades and I suspect it might adversely affect the wootz structure/watering pattern.

kino · 25th September 2020, 05:43 PM

Once used does Nital have to be discarded or can it be re-used?
Does it’s potency wanes with each use?
Can it be safely poured down the sink to dispose?
I suppose I can look up the MSDS for disposal, but quicker here.
Thanks in advance

GePi · 26th September 2020, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Now, they do not serve private individuals anymore and I was not able to order from them.

Now, I switched to Ferric Chloride, but I am not happy with the change. I am still looking for a source of Nital in Europe.
Meanwhile, I either use Ferric (which I hate), or send the blades to a friend of mine here in the Netherlands who does the etching with a nitric based solution (similar to Nital). He is also a very skilled with various types of repairs.

That matches my experience, although I have never had the chance to use nital myself.
Does your friend work on comission, or does he only do the work for you as a personal favor?
I do have some persian blades with an unsatisfactory finish that due to cites I cannot send outside of the EU.

mariusgmioc · 26th September 2020, 07:49 PM

My friend is a professional swords and armour maker.

He is accepting commissions, but is quite busy as he is working also for museums.

Will send you his contact details in PM.

GePi · 26th September 2020, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

My friend is a professional swords and armour maker.

He is accepting commissions, but is quite busy as he is working also for museums.

Will send you his contact details in PM.

Great, thanks!

23rd September 2020, 03:06 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	From all I can see in the photos, the blade seems to have some watering structure like some 19th century wootz. Regarding the dotted markings, I also believe they are most likely from tightening the blade in a vice. The shape of the blade looks like a Persian Qama but the shape of the hilt is more Caucasian. The example posted by Conduit has a more "Persian-looking" hilt. However, let us remember that until 19th century much of the Caucasus area was part of Persia, so many times there is very difficult to distinguish between regions and styles in the area. Also let us not forget that Qama and Kindjal are different names for the same weapon. More exactly, the very same weapon that is called "KINDJAL" in Russia and Daghestan, is called "QAMA" in Iran and Georgia. For etching, Nital 4% is probably the best choice. It gives higher contrast than Ferric Chloride, is less messy (as it does not stain yellow everything that comes into contact with) and is less prone to rusting. However, Ferric Chloride is not that bad and it can be successfully used instead of Nital. I used both. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 24th September 2020 at 02:48 PM.

25th September 2020, 04:33 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Unfortunately, I do not know any source of Nital available for individual use in Europe. I used to get my Nital from THE ETCHANT STORE in the US. Several years ago, I could order it and have it shipped directly to the Netherlands. A few years ago, they changed the policy and shipped only to the US and Canada, so I had to ask a fellow forum member from the US to be kind enough to re-ship it to me. Now, they do not serve private individuals anymore and I was not able to order from them. Now, I switched to Ferric Chloride, but I am not happy with the change. I am still looking for a source of Nital in Europe. Meanwhile, I either use Ferric (which I hate), or send the blades to a friend of mine here in the Netherlands who does the etching with a nitric based solution (similar to Nital). He is also a very skilled with various types of repairs. At the time I was able to order from the US, I would combine equal parts of Nital 3% with Nital 5% to get Nital 4%, which I found to work better. How did I use the Nital for etching?! See the link below (with the observation that I got best etching results with a surface polished to about 2000 grit): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732 PS: I am not very familiar with the metallurgy of wootz so I do not know about differential tempering of wootz. However, I certainly did not hear about the use of differential tempering on wootz blades and I suspect it might adversely affect the wootz structure/watering pattern. Last edited by Ian; 26th September 2020 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Links to commercial sites are not permitted in Discussion Forums

24th September 2020, 05:28 PM	#2
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 504	Marius, thanks for the feedback. It looked to me like that was a possibility, but it is hard sometimes to make an objective judgement on a subjective subject especially when you own the item in question. As wootz kindjals are rare I assumed it was wishful thinking on my part. Odd vice mistake. I guess a lot of people don't use wood or copper jaws to save the item they are working on. the original restoration was very sloppy. Is the differential tempering a contraindication to wootz? Conduit, are you planning to clean your qama to see what is underneath? I would linseed the handles. It would make them happy

25th September 2020, 11:22 AM	#4
bobi13 Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Bulgaria Posts: 25	For etching, Nital 4% is probably the best choice. It gives higher contrast than Ferric Chloride, is less messy (as it does not stain yellow everything that comes into contact with) and is less prone to rusting. However, Ferric Chloride is not that bad and it can be successfully used instead of Nital. I used both.[/QUOTE] Hi mariusgmioc How to make etching with natal 4% ?

25th September 2020, 05:43 PM	#6
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,019	Once used does Nital have to be discarded or can it be re-used? Does it’s potency wanes with each use? Can it be safely poured down the sink to dispose? I suppose I can look up the MSDS for disposal, but quicker here. Thanks in advance

26th September 2020, 07:49 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	My friend is a professional swords and armour maker. He is accepting commissions, but is quite busy as he is working also for museums. Will send you his contact details in PM.