Keeping on the path to hand cannons.

fernando · 12th July 2009, 10:17 PM

Hi guys,
These two are coming over early next week.
The smaller one has 14 cms length and a 20 mm caliber, and the larger one has 18 cms. length and a 30 mm caliber.
When they arrive, i will see if i can organize reasonable detail images.
I thought however that these provisional pictures i am showing here would be good enough for an opinnion on their 'appeal' and, if possible and as allways, a guess on their estimated age.
Would they still be from the XVI century?

Bitte ?

Fernando.

.

Matchlock · 14th July 2009, 03:25 PM

Hi Fernando,

I guess the Bitte was meant for me ...

It is really hard to discern but these do not seem very early to me: their conical shape with the broad and flat rear section would make them ideal for firing in an upright position.

Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron.

While almost all these barrels kept their traditional Gothic form (octagonal or sometimes hexagonal) for hundreds of years I should attribute these two tentatively to the 18h or 19th century and call them noisemakers.

Again, it is very difficult to tell and I have to resort to a sort of feeling which should by no means impair your having fun with them, though!

Michael

fernando · 14th July 2009, 07:26 PM

Hi Michael,
Yeah, the Bitte was for you

.
You see, you being the expert in this area, i don't know the polite way to ask you personnaly for your precious coments without risking to disencourage other guys to post their remarks.
Thanks a lot for your diagnosis on these two examples. It is true i can't hide some disappointment for them not being older.
Oh well, you can't win 'em all.
When they arrive, tomorrow, i will take some pictures and examine the things with(out) a clinic eye, to check whether they are wrought or found iron, their actual shape and other details. Maybe there is a chance to add some time to their apparent antiquity ?!

.
Fernando

Atlantia · 15th July 2009, 11:06 AM

Hey Nando!
More nice additions to the ever growing collection?
Even if these do turn out to be later than you'd hoped, they are certainly nice additions, and as you seem to have found a 'niche' here with these little bangers, its good to have examples of all types to build a chronology.
How many hand cannons/mortars etc will this take the Fernando total up to?

Regards
Gene

BTW. I like Matchlocks comment about 'having fun with them'. I agree! These look like they'd take a small black powder charge and some wadding

Obvioulsy care would be needed, but it might be a giggle!!

fernando · 15th July 2009, 09:32 PM

Hi Gene,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... How many hand cannons/mortars etc will this take the Fernando total up to? ...

A lot more than i thought i would come across with

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... BTW. I like Matchlocks comment about 'having fun with them'. I agree! These look like they'd take a small black powder charge and some wadding

Obvioulsy care would be needed, but it might be a giggle!!

I wouldn't bang these things myself; but if you want to come over and try them, i'll teach you the way down here

.

Fernando

Matchlock · 15th July 2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron.

It should read cast iron, of course ...

m

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

It should read cast iron, of course ...

m

Understood in the first place; in portuguese is fundido.
Fernando

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:37 PM

I have tried to take resasonable (?) detailed pictures.
Cast iron they are, of course Michael.
They even look to have come out from the same foundry, judging by their texture and also their relative design.
Their conical profile is rather pronounced, as may be seen in these new pictures, specially the large one.
Their walls are quite thick, their bases are even much more; the large one weighs 7,5 kg.
It could (should) be that they are signal mortars but, within my ignorance, with such walls and bases, they could well be (or serve) on a weapon scheme ... don't ask me which version

.
Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis?

.

Fernando.

.

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:43 PM

The large one

.

Matchlock · 16th July 2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis?

.

Fernando.

O sim, mi amigo,

18th/19th century, especially as they are fundido.

Btw, very good images!

The areas around the touch holes of both items seem to have been altered within their working life: while a former pan like moulding seems to have been removed from the larger one, the touch hole of the smaller barrel seems to have been burnt out and consequently reduced in diameter.

If I were you I would fill them up with powder, put a wooden plug in the muzzles and bang away using a slow match to make the sound ring out all over Portugal - if they have not burst so far they certainly won't now! Just imagine them jumping from the recoil!

Best,
Michael

12th July 2009, 10:17 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Keeping on the path to hand cannons. Hi guys, These two are coming over early next week. The smaller one has 14 cms length and a 20 mm caliber, and the larger one has 18 cms. length and a 30 mm caliber. When they arrive, i will see if i can organize reasonable detail images. I thought however that these provisional pictures i am showing here would be good enough for an opinnion on their 'appeal' and, if possible and as allways, a guess on their estimated age. Would they still be from the XVI century? Bitte ? Fernando. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 12th July 2009 at 10:24 PM. Reason: addition

15th July 2009, 06:43 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	The large one . Attached Images

14th July 2009, 03:25 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, I guess the Bitte was meant for me ... It is really hard to discern but these do not seem very early to me: their conical shape with the broad and flat rear section would make them ideal for firing in an upright position. Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron. While almost all these barrels kept their traditional Gothic form (octagonal or sometimes hexagonal) for hundreds of years I should attribute these two tentatively to the 18h or 19th century and call them noisemakers. Again, it is very difficult to tell and I have to resort to a sort of feeling which should by no means impair your having fun with them, though! Michael

14th July 2009, 07:26 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Michael, Yeah, the Bitte was for you . You see, you being the expert in this area, i don't know the polite way to ask you personnaly for your precious coments without risking to disencourage other guys to post their remarks. Thanks a lot for your diagnosis on these two examples. It is true i can't hide some disappointment for them not being older. Oh well, you can't win 'em all. When they arrive, tomorrow, i will take some pictures and examine the things with(out) a clinic eye, to check whether they are wrought or found iron, their actual shape and other details. Maybe there is a chance to add some time to their apparent antiquity ?! . Fernando

15th July 2009, 11:06 AM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hey Nando! More nice additions to the ever growing collection? Even if these do turn out to be later than you'd hoped, they are certainly nice additions, and as you seem to have found a 'niche' here with these little bangers, its good to have examples of all types to build a chronology. How many hand cannons/mortars etc will this take the Fernando total up to? Regards Gene BTW. I like Matchlocks comment about 'having fun with them'. I agree! These look like they'd take a small black powder charge and some wadding Obvioulsy care would be needed, but it might be a giggle!!

15th July 2009, 06:37 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I have tried to take resasonable (?) detailed pictures. Cast iron they are, of course Michael. They even look to have come out from the same foundry, judging by their texture and also their relative design. Their conical profile is rather pronounced, as may be seen in these new pictures, specially the large one. Their walls are quite thick, their bases are even much more; the large one weighs 7,5 kg. It could (should) be that they are signal mortars but, within my ignorance, with such walls and bases, they could well be (or serve) on a weapon scheme ... don't ask me which version . Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis? . Fernando. .