Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st May 2018, 07:04 PM   #1
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default Amanremu

Hi all,

this is my new old Amanremu, received from a good friend of mine. I`m very thankful to him.
A rare variant of a rare blade, with a beautiful silver decorated hilt and a huge hair tuft from a horse.
The whole sword is 66cm (26") long, blade 52 cm (20,5"), the massive base is a little more than 12 mm (0,5") wide, it weighs 740 grams.

The blade is very interesting, it is almost flawlessly forged, just some layers are visible close to the hilt, the rest looks almost like monosteel. It is probably very fine laminated, but it is to early for me to say something for sure.

But what I can say 100% sure is that the blade saw a sophisticated tempering. It has two more or less parallel temperlines over eachother. The lower one is always stronger.
Afaik it is forgotten how this hardening process was made. I added a picture of the Amanremu together with a Pala sword and the hardening process was definitely very similar. Both blades got a double Hamon and even the shape is similar.
This tempering process is far more developed than the famous Japanese hamon!
I dont know why they put so much effort in the tempering, maybe with a multi stage tempering the blade got less tensions and a lower risk for hardening cracks or whatever.

The great question is now who was the teacher of this technique? I think either the Ottomans or the Indonesians. I have three more of this special hardened "multihamon" blades, a Mandau, an outstanding Pedang and a breathtaking Golok, all of them are top level swords.

Some comments on this sword would be nice.


Best wishes,
Roland
Attached Images
      

Last edited by Roland_M : 21st May 2018 at 07:17 PM.
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 09:55 PM   #2
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,874
Default

Roland, have you considered the possibility that what we are looking at here is a blade with a steel core and an iron body?

The transition between the two types of ferric material will show just such a differentiation in colour.
A. G. Maisey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 08:18 AM   #3
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Roland, have you considered the possibility that what we are looking at here is a blade with a steel core and an iron body?

The transition between the two types of ferric material will show just such a differentiation in colour.


Alan, good question. I'm 100% sure, that we dont see an inserted cutting edge. The transition area between iron and steel would look different. Not so wide, not so even and sharper. If the back would be Iron, the result after staining would look very different to this, since Iron is much more resitant against the etchant than steel.

Until now I dont have better pictures of the temper lines because it is fresh and unfinished work.

I already read about the multistage tempering in my literature as an invention of the Ottomans. The receipe of this special heat treatment seems to has been lost in the last 150 years, perhaps it was kept as a secret.


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 09:02 AM   #4
Machetero
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 11
Default

Hello. I'm a longtime member, but I haven't commented in years.
First of all, lovely Amanremu. Love the rare silver tips on the prongs. Love the very fine blade. I great addition to any collection!

I am curious about the horsehair tuft. I own a Sikin with a similar tuft of coarse equestrian hair sticking out from between the end prongs (the crocodile mouth). I think I have seen it one other time on some other sword, but don't remember where. So what do you all think is the significance of the hair, who put it there?

Would be great to hear some insight or just theories.

/Odd
Machetero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 09:05 AM   #5
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,874
Default

Thank you Roland.

I cannot comment further on the basis of photographs.
A. G. Maisey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 01:56 PM   #6
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machetero
So what do you all think is the significance of the hair, who put it there?



Hello Machetero,

the hair seems to belong original to the sword. The hair tuft is braided and fitted exactly in the hilt.

It could be a sign for a Chieftain or another VIP. This blade is definitely far to good for an ordinary warrior. Or it could be made to deviate and consternate the enemy as on Chinese and other blades. The human eye is programmed to follow movements. The effect is probably not to intense but 5% less of the enemys concentration are 5%.

Finally sometimes such a hair tuft is a simple blood stopper, especially on lanceheads, but clearly not in this case.


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 02:31 PM   #7
Machetero
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 11
Default

Thanks Roland.
That seems like solid reasons the horse hair tuft. I am leaning towards some tribal meaning, or as you say a sign of excellence somehow.
I'll try to get a photo of the Sikin, if you wanna see it.

/Odd
Machetero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 03:57 PM   #8
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,318
Default

Hi Roland,

again, it's a real beauty! I've handled the sword before so I can confirm that the hair tuft seems original to this sword, here is another North Sumatra sword with hair tuft, also this one I've handled and think that the hair tuft is also original to it: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22732
but not so nicely attached. Kai has recommended to remove the hair tuft but fortunately Thomas hasn't followed this advice!
I am curious to see the sikin from Machetero, it would be the third sword from North Sumatra with a hair tuft attached to the handle. Only because we haven't seen this feature before in books or somewhere else it don't mean that it can't be original.
When you ever want to part with this beauty you know who you can ask first!

Best,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 04:29 PM   #9
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machetero
Thanks Roland.
That seems like solid reasons the horse hair tuft. I am leaning towards some tribal meaning, or as you say a sign of excellence somehow.
I'll try to get a photo of the Sikin, if you wanna see it.

/Odd


Hi Machatero,

yes I'm very intersted to see yor Sikin!
I also have a so called Sikin Pasangan with a huge curved blade. According to Volz it is a Peudeung Pasangan. It also got a pretty nice temperline but not as sophisticated as on the Amanremu or Palasword.


Roland
Attached Images
  
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 11:47 PM   #10
Machetero
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 11
Default

Here are a few pics of my Sikin, with the hair and all. The last picture shows a curious number stamped into the blade spine. What it means, I suppose I will never know. Perhaps just a collectors cataloging number. Perhaps something more exciting. I hope to see more of these hair tufts on Northern Sumatra swords, it is invigorating to stumble upon something which at first just seems like an anomaly, and then proves to be something more.
/Odd
Attached Images
    
Machetero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2018, 11:50 PM   #11
Machetero
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 11
Default

Roland. I love that blade on the sikin pasangan, Especially the beautiful curvature of that false edge.
Machetero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2018, 06:29 AM   #12
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machetero
Here are a few pics of my Sikin, with the hair and all.


Machetero,

that is a nice Sikin Panjang with its original scabbard, which got lost in most cases. It is the first Sikin Panjang I see with a hair tuft and since the Sikin Panjang is a pure weapon, no multitool like many others, I think the blade of your Sikin is probably of good to high quality.

Yesterday I saw a little bit of the forging pattern of the Amanremu and it is absolutely awesome.

Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2018, 06:08 AM   #13
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

This is a little embarrasing for me, last night I found out, this Amanremu is no Amanremu. It is a rare Batak Pakpak Ladingin.
As soon as I'm satisfied with my restoration work, I will show it again with its real name. The forging pattern is worth to show.

Last edited by Roland_M : 24th May 2018 at 09:44 AM.
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2018, 10:21 PM   #14
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,158
Wink No embarrassment at all!

Hello Roland,

Quote:
this Amanremu is no Amanremu. It is a rare Batak Pakpak Ladingin.

Woa, hold your horses!

While it may be argued that there might be a continuum Amanremu - Mermu - Ladingin, your blade is at the very Amanremu end of the whole spectrum...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2018, 10:40 PM   #15
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,910
Default

So sikim and amanremu had hair coming from the hollow place in the hilt..........
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2018, 06:05 AM   #16
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,158
Red face

Hello Jose,

Quote:
So sikim and amanremu had hair coming from the hollow place in the hilt..........

I still don't think so; however, I can't prove a negative.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2018, 06:05 AM   #17
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Roland,


Woa, hold your horses!

While it may be argued that there might be a continuum Amanremu - Mermu - Ladingin, your blade is at the very Amanremu end of the whole spectrum...

Regards,
Kai


Hello Kai,

it is a Batak Pakpak Ladingin!
Here is my source and if you search for "Ladingin" you will find one from Gavin Nugent, which is very similar to my one and it also fits exactly to the Ladingin from Volz. The Amanremu got longer "horns" on the hilt and the tip of the blade is less rounded.

Roland
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Roland_M : 25th May 2018 at 06:36 AM.
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2018, 06:41 AM   #18
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,158
Post

Hello Roland,

Quote:
A rare variant of a rare blade, with a beautiful silver decorated hilt

Congrats, these are certainly rare to begin with! You do seem to attract unusual blades - I would have expected a steel slorok between laminated softer layers.

I'm looking forward to seeing what your blade discloses after full polish!

Could you add some close-ups of the silver "jaws" of the hilt, please?


Quote:
The whole sword is 66cm (26") long, blade 52 cm (20,5"), the massive base is a little more than 12 mm (0,5") wide, it weighs 740 grams.

A nice blade of large size! (BTW, thickness is considerable at 12mm, width at the base will be more... What is the max. width near the tip?)

This is a large-sized example. I believe these are typical for northern origins. I can't rule out Gayo Luos; however, the bamboo shoot or gunung-like extension of the silver ferrule seems to be more of an Aceh feature - maybe this comes from the Gayo region around Lake Tawar?


Quote:
But what I can say 100% sure is that the blade saw a sophisticated tempering. It has two more or less parallel temperlines over each other. The lower one is always stronger.

Quenching/hardening rather than tempering, I suppose?

Could this be the result of subsequent passes with a water dripper? Are you sure the darker edge is not from a san-mai (or inserted edge) construction?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2018, 07:23 AM   #19
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,158
Post

Hello Roland,

Quote:
it is a Batak Pakpak Ladingin!

My vote is still amanremu/mermu based on the blade (profile/etc., see below).


Quote:
Here is my source and if you search for "Ladingin" you will find one from Gavin Nugent, which is very similar to my one and it also fits exactly to the Ladingin from Volz. The Amanremu got longer "horns" on the hilt and the tip of the blade is less rounded.

I have Volz and agree that the example from Gavin's site is a typical ladingin. (I'm attaching a few pics for future reference. BTW, I believe this piece has a laminated blade with steel slorok.)

Ladingin blades typically exhibit a relatively evenly-radiused tip and fairly slender blades. Amanremu/mermu typically have this steep, kinda angled tip profile; however, this can get worn out from use. Mermu from the southern end of their distribution can have fairly slender blades which can blur the distinction between worn mermu blades and ladingin somewhat...

I agree that the hilt of your piece does merit a closer look: Pics from different angles would be great!

Regards,
Kai
Attached Images
    
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2018, 07:25 AM   #20
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 505
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Roland,


Congrats, these are certainly rare to begin with! You do seem to attract unusual blades - I would have expected a steel slorok between laminated softer layers.

I'm looking forward to seeing what your blade discloses after full polish!

Could you add some close-ups of the silver "jaws" of the hilt, please?



A nice blade of large size! (BTW, thickness is considerable at 12mm, width at the base will be more... What is the max. width near the tip?)

This is a large-sized example. I believe these are typical for northern origins. I can't rule out Gayo Luos; however, the bamboo shoot or gunung-like extension of the silver ferrule seems to be more of an Aceh feature - maybe this comes from the Gayo region around Lake Tawar?



Quenching/hardening rather than tempering, I suppose?

Could this be the result of subsequent passes with a water dripper? Are you sure the darker edge is not from a san-mai (or inserted edge) construction?

Regards,
Kai


Hello Kai,

I will make some pictures when I'm back at home. But I also plan to make a new thread. So I will send the pictures as a privat message to you.

Dipping the edge only under water is a common practise in Java for example. But they will never have one or two hardening lines parallel to the edge with this method. This sword was probably hardened with a complex isolation on the blade. I will make some pictures of the complex hamon.

Until now it is to early make a solid statement but it seems, that there is no inserted edge, the wohle blade is made of good steel.

Btw. the difference in hardness between the very hard edge and the softer back is huge. This allowed me to give the blade a Katana like cutting edge.


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2018, 11:25 AM   #21
Biffy
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1
Smile very nice object

I have seen a few with hair and also well made blades but this one is likely the best yet.
Biffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.