Kris hilt problems, solution anybody?

S.Workman · 8th May 2014, 02:13 PM

Hello everyone,
I am in the process of rejuvenating a (probably) Bali kris. I got some great tips from lurking on this forum, especially concerning blade care and restoration. When I removed the blade, it proved to be very easy as the tang was wrapped in rotten cloth which I guess was used to take up the extra room in the hulu, which has a very much larger hole than the kris has a tang. Is there a traditional or rational method for securing the undersized tang? I was thinking along the lines of jute twine secured with pine tar.
On another note, before I cleaned the blade, this kris had a very unpleasant smell, like fish and rotten eggs combined. Very odd...

David · 9th May 2014, 06:26 PM

Welcome to the forum Mr. Workman. Don't know about the smell as i tend to find them more pleasantly scented with floral oils. But folks use all kinds of things to tighten up hilts. I've found all kinds if string, yarn and twine used and i have had a number of old keris that have used human hair for the purpose. I would not add any pine tar to the mix unless you plan on going into battle with your keris. I think it is better to leave it more moveable than not and pine tar will be sticky and messy, even if not exactly permanent. I generally cut linen cloth into long strips for securing hilts. I like to use natural fibers.

David · 9th May 2014, 06:31 PM

BTW, keris are almost always kept tight to the hilt in a similar manner. This is not unusual in the lest bit.
I have deleted your other post because it is a repeat of this one in your questioning. As a new member you will be on moderated status for a little while and will have to wait until myself or Rick (the other keris forum moderator) clears your post. Please be patient and we will get to you…promise.

S.Workman · 10th May 2014, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

BTW, keris are almost always kept tight to the hilt in a similar manner. This is not unusual in the lest bit.
I have deleted your other post because it is a repeat of this one in your questioning. As a new member you will be on moderated status for a little while and will have to wait until myself or Rick (the other keris forum moderator) clears your post. Please be patient and we will get to you…promise.

Thank you for your welcome, your information, and for deleting the duplicated post. I had assumed that I had made a mistake and inadvertently hit the back arrow instead of the submit reply button. I am on an ipad and it's a common enough mistake of mine.
I live in a cold, cloudy place but I am hoping to have sufficient sun this weekend to finish up the blade to this keris. Cross your fingers for me.

Sajen · 10th May 2014, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

I live in a cold, cloudy place but I am hoping to have sufficient sun this weekend to finish up the blade to this keris. Cross your fingers for me.

Welcome to the forum S.,

good luck! Hope we get to see some pictures!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2014, 07:20 PM

There are a few fixes for hole bigger than tang.

Where the tang is very thin, you can make a miniature cone out of thin steel, a piece of old tin can is the sort of material to use. Fit it to the tang and hold it in place with damar or jabung, or even epoxy resin.

If the problem is a far too big hole in the tang, just plug the hole with a dowel, glue in place, and redrill.

I prefer knitting wool as the material to use for a friction fit of tang to hilt, because it compresses. Fabric and the various twines do not compress to the same degree as wool. It is pretty easy to split a hilt if you force it on.

Battara · 11th May 2014, 12:58 AM

That would be my concern, Alan, splitting the hulu. Thus I went with David's strategy when I worked on my Balinese ivory hulu. However never thought of what Alan said and I call him an expert. Both have merit.

Just make sure you don't split the hulu and don't use adhesive. Finally, please post your results if you would.........

S.Workman · 11th May 2014, 02:26 AM

I will most certainly post pictures if I can manage it. I also intend to re-do the job I did finishing another keris, so tomorrow should be a two off weather permitting.

A. G. Maisey · 11th May 2014, 06:31 AM

With a hilt that looks like it might split, or already has a split---and a lot of old hilts do have splits that remain unseen until the hilt is fitted--- its a good idea to only wind sufficient wool for a friction fit on the top quarter of the tang, reduce the amount of wool on the lower section of the tang to just sufficient to stop it wobbling around.

S.Workman · 11th May 2014, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

I will most certainly post pictures if I can manage it. I also intend to re-do the job I did finishing another keris, so tomorrow should be a two off weather permitting.

I am quoting myself to report failure on this pair of keris. One of them I now have serious doubts about needing a wash with arsenic, I think it needs to be acid washed and etched. There is no trace of pamor at all. The other one needed the arsenic wash to bring up the pamor, but it came out even worse than the first time. I think the problem is that I used bottled lime juice - it was not from concentrate, its the real thing, but I don't think the acid was concentrated enough to put the arsenic into solution. I would experiment more, but it will have to wait.

David · 13th May 2014, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

I am quoting myself to report failure on this pair of keris. One of them I now have serious doubts about needing a wash with arsenic, I think it needs to be acid washed and etched. There is no trace of pamor at all. The other one needed the arsenic wash to bring up the pamor, but it came out even worse than the first time. I think the problem is that I used bottled lime juice - it was not from concentrate, its the real thing, but I don't think the acid was concentrated enough to put the arsenic into solution. I would experiment more, but it will have to wait.

Using warangan is a delicate and tricky process sometimes requiring multiple tries to get satisfactory results. Perhaps you can tell us more about your process. I am not sure if you are following directions you found on this site or somewhere else, but it is important that your blade has been completely cleaned of all previous warangan first, brought down to what people call a "white" blade through soaking in a mild acidic bath and scrubbing the blade clean. I have used pineapple juice in the past. I would indeed recommend fresh limes and laboratory quality arsenic (As2 O3). Weather is also an important factor. The process doesn't work well in cold and i like to work outdoors in open shade on a bright sunny day, but Alan might have some better advice for you on this as he has far more experience with the process than i do.

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2014, 05:03 PM

In my experience, nothing but freshly squeezed tahitian limes will provide the fluid that you need.

In Jawa they are not called Tahitian limes, but that's what they are sold as in Oz. In my previous house I had my own tree and harvested and prepared the juice when the limes came on, then I saved the juice in the deep freeze immediately, this worked OK too.

You need to squeeze the limes, then strain the juice, then filter through clean cloth, I use an old, worn linen handerchief.

As David has said, keris staining is a very delicate process, and not real easy to get a decent result. As with any skill, it takes time to learn.

S.Workman · 13th May 2014, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

With a hilt that looks like it might split, or already has a split---and a lot of old hilts do have splits that remain unseen until the hilt is fitted--- its a good idea to only wind sufficient wool for a friction fit on the top quarter of the tang, reduce the amount of wool on the lower section of the tang to just sufficient to stop it wobbling around.

You know a fellow is an old hand when they can tell you the proper ratio for tang winding without damage. Thank you sir.

S.Workman · 13th May 2014, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In my experience, nothing but freshly squeezed tahitian limes will provide the fluid that you need.

In Jawa they are not called Tahitian limes, but that's what they are sold as in Oz. In my previous house I had my own tree and harvested and prepared the juice when the limes came on, then I saved the juice in the deep freeze immediately, this worked OK too.

You need to squeeze the limes, then strain the juice, then filter through clean cloth, I use an old, worn linen handerchief.

As David has said, keris staining is a very delicate process, and not real easy to get a decent result. As with any skill, it takes time to learn.

I am sure that has a lot to do with it, also my arsenic is not what it should be. I am using artists orpiment, which is arsenic trisulphide. It ought to be arsenic trioxide, but I found an old materia medica book online which details how to convert it by roasting. Since the orpiment is one tenth the price of normal arsenic trioxide, this makes sense, but it's tricky work and not the safest. If I am pleased with the results, I will take the time to detail the process, but if it doesn't work, I will have to buy the right stuff, and it's not cheap.

David · 14th May 2014, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Workman

I am sure that has a lot to do with it, also my arsenic is not what it should be. I am using artists orpiment, which is arsenic trisulphide. It ought to be arsenic trioxide, but I found an old materia medica book online which details how to convert it by roasting. Since the orpiment is one tenth the price of normal arsenic trioxide, this makes sense, but it's tricky work and not the safest. If I am pleased with the results, I will take the time to detail the process, but if it doesn't work, I will have to buy the right stuff, and it's not cheap.

That sounds like more trouble than it's worth and a safety issue as well. I recommend that you purchase the arsenic trioxide if you have a source for it. I bought a gram of it for $25 some a few years ago and still have about half that supply. It goes a long way.

S.Workman · 14th May 2014, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

That sounds like more trouble than it's worth and a safety issue as well. I recommend that you purchase the arsenic trioxide if you have a source for it. I bought a gram of it for $25 some a few years ago and still have about half that supply. It goes a long way.

I can't find a supply, but I have abandoned the attempt to roast it. The hindu materia medica stated that those who roast orpiment don't have a long life. It ended up being sketchy and a big potential pain. I presently have two keris disassembled, and I may just put them back together with a good oiling and wait for a more propitious time. My weather is frequently bad, and this arsenic thing is a big drag for me.

David · 14th May 2014, 11:35 PM

I am glad to here that you are abandoning your "roasting" idea, but i don't think you need to give up altogether if you really want to pursue this. Arsenic trioxide is difficult to obtain, but not impossible. BTW, i was wrong about amounts. I actually bought a 25 gm. bottle some years ago for $25. But there was a hazardous transport fee and the final cost came to just under $50. I just looked on line and found 100 gm. supplies selling for about $60 (plus hazard fee). Considering how much you use in the process that isn't really too expensive. I don't want to make a commercial announcement here, but try googling "arsenic trioxide for sale".
I have spent plenty of time in Vermont and i know that you definitely get a few weather windows of opportunity up there…

S.Workman · 15th May 2014, 07:34 PM

I will have to search out arsenic, I wonder if the arsenic reagent, which is a liquid it seems, has any use in this context? In any event, Vermont being Vermont, it looks like a week of alternatively hot and muggy and hot and rainy weather, following a long period of rainy, chilly and windy weather. I guess I have a bit of a wait.
The keris that I referred to earlier, which seems to have no pamor and which smelled very odd, can just be given a light acid bath and then an oil, is that right? I am fairly sure that there is no pamor because my orpiment technique, while a failure, did at least reveal the pamor on my other keris. There just wasn't a satisfying amount of contrast, just a sharp but light definition between lines. That's what makes me think that there is no pamor on that keris. Once I get it cleaned up, I will post some pictures. It's very nice, at least to my untrained eyes, and quite simple, which is a style I favor. I am hoping to test myself by posting pictures, along with what I believe to be the proper descriptives to see if I am right or if I could use some correction, if that's alright by board standards.

David · 16th May 2014, 12:04 AM

Yes, posting photos would be a great idea, even before you finish cleaning them up. Actually seeing the results you got so far can help us advise you. Also keep in mind that not all keris with pamor will give a high contrast effect. It will all depend on a number of factors, including what type of material was used for the pamor itself.
In regards to arsenic, i would recommend that you stay away from experimenting with other forms. What you want is arsenic trioxide for the best result. You will just be wasting time, energy and money otherwise.
Your second keris may or may not have pamor. Sometimes it can hide a bit. What are you using as a "light acid bath"?
Again, detailed photographs of both these keris will help us help you.

8th May 2014, 02:13 PM	#1
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Kris hilt problems, solution anybody? Hello everyone, I am in the process of rejuvenating a (probably) Bali kris. I got some great tips from lurking on this forum, especially concerning blade care and restoration. When I removed the blade, it proved to be very easy as the tang was wrapped in rotten cloth which I guess was used to take up the extra room in the hulu, which has a very much larger hole than the kris has a tang. Is there a traditional or rational method for securing the undersized tang? I was thinking along the lines of jute twine secured with pine tar. On another note, before I cleaned the blade, this kris had a very unpleasant smell, like fish and rotten eggs combined. Very odd...

9th May 2014, 06:26 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Welcome to the forum Mr. Workman. Don't know about the smell as i tend to find them more pleasantly scented with floral oils. But folks use all kinds of things to tighten up hilts. I've found all kinds if string, yarn and twine used and i have had a number of old keris that have used human hair for the purpose. I would not add any pine tar to the mix unless you plan on going into battle with your keris. I think it is better to leave it more moveable than not and pine tar will be sticky and messy, even if not exactly permanent. I generally cut linen cloth into long strips for securing hilts. I like to use natural fibers.

9th May 2014, 06:31 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	BTW, keris are almost always kept tight to the hilt in a similar manner. This is not unusual in the lest bit. I have deleted your other post because it is a repeat of this one in your questioning. As a new member you will be on moderated status for a little while and will have to wait until myself or Rick (the other keris forum moderator) clears your post. Please be patient and we will get to you…promise.

10th May 2014, 07:20 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	There are a few fixes for hole bigger than tang. Where the tang is very thin, you can make a miniature cone out of thin steel, a piece of old tin can is the sort of material to use. Fit it to the tang and hold it in place with damar or jabung, or even epoxy resin. If the problem is a far too big hole in the tang, just plug the hole with a dowel, glue in place, and redrill. I prefer knitting wool as the material to use for a friction fit of tang to hilt, because it compresses. Fabric and the various twines do not compress to the same degree as wool. It is pretty easy to split a hilt if you force it on.

11th May 2014, 12:58 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	That would be my concern, Alan, splitting the hulu. Thus I went with David's strategy when I worked on my Balinese ivory hulu. However never thought of what Alan said and I call him an expert. Both have merit. Just make sure you don't split the hulu and don't use adhesive. Finally, please post your results if you would.........

11th May 2014, 02:26 AM	#8
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	I will most certainly post pictures if I can manage it. I also intend to re-do the job I did finishing another keris, so tomorrow should be a two off weather permitting.

11th May 2014, 06:31 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	With a hilt that looks like it might split, or already has a split---and a lot of old hilts do have splits that remain unseen until the hilt is fitted--- its a good idea to only wind sufficient wool for a friction fit on the top quarter of the tang, reduce the amount of wool on the lower section of the tang to just sufficient to stop it wobbling around.

13th May 2014, 05:03 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	In my experience, nothing but freshly squeezed tahitian limes will provide the fluid that you need. In Jawa they are not called Tahitian limes, but that's what they are sold as in Oz. In my previous house I had my own tree and harvested and prepared the juice when the limes came on, then I saved the juice in the deep freeze immediately, this worked OK too. You need to squeeze the limes, then strain the juice, then filter through clean cloth, I use an old, worn linen handerchief. As David has said, keris staining is a very delicate process, and not real easy to get a decent result. As with any skill, it takes time to learn.

14th May 2014, 11:35 PM	#17
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	I am glad to here that you are abandoning your "roasting" idea, but i don't think you need to give up altogether if you really want to pursue this. Arsenic trioxide is difficult to obtain, but not impossible. BTW, i was wrong about amounts. I actually bought a 25 gm. bottle some years ago for $25. But there was a hazardous transport fee and the final cost came to just under $50. I just looked on line and found 100 gm. supplies selling for about $60 (plus hazard fee). Considering how much you use in the process that isn't really too expensive. I don't want to make a commercial announcement here, but try googling "arsenic trioxide for sale". I have spent plenty of time in Vermont and i know that you definitely get a few weather windows of opportunity up there…

15th May 2014, 07:34 PM	#18
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	I will have to search out arsenic, I wonder if the arsenic reagent, which is a liquid it seems, has any use in this context? In any event, Vermont being Vermont, it looks like a week of alternatively hot and muggy and hot and rainy weather, following a long period of rainy, chilly and windy weather. I guess I have a bit of a wait. The keris that I referred to earlier, which seems to have no pamor and which smelled very odd, can just be given a light acid bath and then an oil, is that right? I am fairly sure that there is no pamor because my orpiment technique, while a failure, did at least reveal the pamor on my other keris. There just wasn't a satisfying amount of contrast, just a sharp but light definition between lines. That's what makes me think that there is no pamor on that keris. Once I get it cleaned up, I will post some pictures. It's very nice, at least to my untrained eyes, and quite simple, which is a style I favor. I am hoping to test myself by posting pictures, along with what I believe to be the proper descriptives to see if I am right or if I could use some correction, if that's alright by board standards.

16th May 2014, 12:04 AM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Yes, posting photos would be a great idea, even before you finish cleaning them up. Actually seeing the results you got so far can help us advise you. Also keep in mind that not all keris with pamor will give a high contrast effect. It will all depend on a number of factors, including what type of material was used for the pamor itself. In regards to arsenic, i would recommend that you stay away from experimenting with other forms. What you want is arsenic trioxide for the best result. You will just be wasting time, energy and money otherwise. Your second keris may or may not have pamor. Sometimes it can hide a bit. What are you using as a "light acid bath"? Again, detailed photographs of both these keris will help us help you.