Khanda Questions

archer · 6th January 2012, 01:49 AM

Questions, regarding this badly abused blade. Is this an Indian or Firangi blade? The blade is short 23 inches and has been reshaped, etc. The blade shows two definite sharp bends and realignment. Were Indian swords ever ritually bent and purposely damaged?
Traces of silver work are evident all exposed areas of the basket are engraved. Was this blade just a bad marriage?
Interested to hear your comments. Steve

Henk · 6th January 2012, 09:48 AM

If i recall well, it is an Indian sword called Firangi. Firangi means foreigner or abroad refering to the blade wich is mostly an imported blade mounted with a hilt like your sword.
I have a rapier blade mounted with a tulwar like hilt with that extraordinary long spike. The spike on mine Firangi had been cut off

Runjeet Singh · 6th January 2012, 10:05 AM

Steve,

As far as I know Indian swords were never ritually bent. However, due to certain political events in India in the late 19th century and early 20th Century, swords and weapons became a sensitive subject in Indian law. This led to the Indian public becoming nervous about keeping such items.

I believe swords blades were bent, or 'folded', and swords kept in this state to show the authorities they were kept as a keepsake and not for use.

Indians also went to the extremes of breaking the blades, the more determined or educated would dismantle the sword and keep the blade separately.

Hope this helps!
Runjeet

Stan S. · 6th January 2012, 02:05 PM

That’s an awesome sword. I too was bidding on it on eBay a couple of weeks ago and had the 2nd highest bid. You outbid me by a buck or two. At least it’s nice to know that it went to a fellow forumite.

Not a firanghi in my opinion, as the blade is clearly not of European manufacture due to a cartouche being in what looks like Arabic(?). Not a khanda either. It is definitely a cut down blade, and is it my imagination or is there a slight down curve to it? If so, it could indicate the sword originally being either a kirach or most likely a sosun pattah with an Indian basket hilt.

On the subject of bends... Are you sure the blade had been bent and straightened? I can see the areas of discoloration you are referring to but I don't really see any indication of external damage from your pictures. If the blade is in fact straight, these could be forge seams between billets of steel used to make the blade.

Please send me a PM if you ever decide to part with this sword.

Dom · 6th January 2012, 02:42 PM

Hi Steve
attempted translation from the Arabic language, has failed

this may be Urdu, and other Indian languages

à +

Dom

ariel · 6th January 2012, 04:04 PM

The fuller runs into the tip: thus, the blade was shortened. I also seem to see the downward sloping of the distal part of the blade. If so, and if we put these two together, I would guess it is a reshaped Sosun Patta of Indian form.
I have a similar one which is a carbon copy of the one in Leeds Royal Armoury. There it is defined as a 17th cen. Solingen blade specifically produced for export. Mine even has european markings. The "islamic" markings on the presented one might be a later addition.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th January 2012, 06:19 PM

The blade seems to have been shortened by 20 to 30 cm, or maybe a bit less.

When did you last see a Sosun Patta with a fuller, or a Kirach for that matter?

I am not quite sure what I think of the blade, but it is, most certainly quite different form the blades we mostly see – and I have some difficulties to see where the European blade form comes in.

ariel · 6th January 2012, 07:26 PM

Your wish is my command:-)

Here are quick pic of my Sosun Patta.
The pics of the one in Leeds are somewhere in my archives but they are horribly messed up. If any of the Forumites has a chance of visiting LRA, I would be most grateful for photographing it.

Tim Simmons · 6th January 2012, 07:50 PM

Not my area but from a craftsmans view there appears to be rather a gauche match of blade to handle?

6th January 2012, 01:49 AM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Khanda Questions Questions, regarding this badly abused blade. Is this an Indian or Firangi blade? The blade is short 23 inches and has been reshaped, etc. The blade shows two definite sharp bends and realignment. Were Indian swords ever ritually bent and purposely damaged? Traces of silver work are evident all exposed areas of the basket are engraved. Was this blade just a bad marriage? Interested to hear your comments. Steve Attached Images Last edited by archer; 6th January 2012 at 02:00 AM.

6th January 2012, 02:42 PM	#5
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Steve attempted translation from the Arabic language, has failed this may be Urdu, and other Indian languages à + Dom Attached Images

6th January 2012, 07:26 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Your wish is my command:-) Here are quick pic of my Sosun Patta. The pics of the one in Leeds are somewhere in my archives but they are horribly messed up. If any of the Forumites has a chance of visiting LRA, I would be most grateful for photographing it. Attached Images

6th January 2012, 09:48 AM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	If i recall well, it is an Indian sword called Firangi. Firangi means foreigner or abroad refering to the blade wich is mostly an imported blade mounted with a hilt like your sword. I have a rapier blade mounted with a tulwar like hilt with that extraordinary long spike. The spike on mine Firangi had been cut off

6th January 2012, 10:05 AM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Steve, As far as I know Indian swords were never ritually bent. However, due to certain political events in India in the late 19th century and early 20th Century, swords and weapons became a sensitive subject in Indian law. This led to the Indian public becoming nervous about keeping such items. I believe swords blades were bent, or 'folded', and swords kept in this state to show the authorities they were kept as a keepsake and not for use. Indians also went to the extremes of breaking the blades, the more determined or educated would dismantle the sword and keep the blade separately. Hope this helps! Runjeet

6th January 2012, 02:05 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	That’s an awesome sword. I too was bidding on it on eBay a couple of weeks ago and had the 2nd highest bid. You outbid me by a buck or two. At least it’s nice to know that it went to a fellow forumite. Not a firanghi in my opinion, as the blade is clearly not of European manufacture due to a cartouche being in what looks like Arabic(?). Not a khanda either. It is definitely a cut down blade, and is it my imagination or is there a slight down curve to it? If so, it could indicate the sword originally being either a kirach or most likely a sosun pattah with an Indian basket hilt. On the subject of bends... Are you sure the blade had been bent and straightened? I can see the areas of discoloration you are referring to but I don't really see any indication of external damage from your pictures. If the blade is in fact straight, these could be forge seams between billets of steel used to make the blade. Please send me a PM if you ever decide to part with this sword.

6th January 2012, 04:04 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The fuller runs into the tip: thus, the blade was shortened. I also seem to see the downward sloping of the distal part of the blade. If so, and if we put these two together, I would guess it is a reshaped Sosun Patta of Indian form. I have a similar one which is a carbon copy of the one in Leeds Royal Armoury. There it is defined as a 17th cen. Solingen blade specifically produced for export. Mine even has european markings. The "islamic" markings on the presented one might be a later addition.

6th January 2012, 06:19 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	The blade seems to have been shortened by 20 to 30 cm, or maybe a bit less. When did you last see a Sosun Patta with a fuller, or a Kirach for that matter? I am not quite sure what I think of the blade, but it is, most certainly quite different form the blades we mostly see – and I have some difficulties to see where the European blade form comes in.

6th January 2012, 07:50 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Not my area but from a craftsmans view there appears to be rather a gauche match of blade to handle?