I'd Like to Learn More About This Peninsula(???) Keris

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2020, 10:17 AM

Yes Jean, that is so.

and

Thank you Mickey.

So as a word "penyalang" is simply the name of type of keris in Malaysia, and a place name, no actual meaning as a stand alone word. This is in accord with my understanding, but the "pen" prefix would seem to permit it to stand alone.

Jean · 13th September 2020, 11:38 AM

It seems to me that the name "keris alang" is used in Malaysia (and perhaps East Sumatra?) to identify a kris similar to the keris bahari (blade length about 30 cm) and the keris panjang (blade length about 55 cm) with a scabbard in dua hari bulan (moon crescent) style, but with a intermediate blade length of about 40 cm. Other opinions from Malaysian members (where are you guys?) are welcome.

CharlesS · 13th September 2020, 12:33 PM

Great stuff here! Thanks guys!

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2020, 12:57 PM

Jean, I am not literate in Malay, you probably know that BI and Malay are mutually intelligible, but when we dig a little below the surface there are differences. Thus, I tend to rely on Wilkinson for clarification of Malay words that I do not understand.

"alang" does appear in Wilkinson and has a lot of applications, one of the Wilkinson applications is:- "keris alang:- a short straight dagger".

So yes, as the K. bahari is somewhat shorter than the original "long keris" I guess you could be right. However, EK gives bahari length as 42 - 45cm, and if a keris alang is only 30cm, then it is shorter again than a bahari.

Incidentally, what i wrote about K. Bangkalan & etc was from memory, I could not recall where I had read it, but I have now found my source, it is EK page 87, and my memory is not so great, because it is a "Keris Bangkinang", not a "Keris Bangkalan", as you so correctly pointed out.

I have no personal opinions in this matter, I have nil field experience in the area from which these keris come, I am only repeating the opinions of others.

Jean · 13th September 2020, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So yes, as the K. bahari is somewhat shorter than the original "long keris" I guess you could be right. However, EK gives bahari length as 42 - 45cm, and if a keris alang is only 30cm, then it is shorter again than a bahari.

Hello Alan,
Yes,the EK page 88 describes the keris bahari as having a blade between 42 to 45 cm long, and on page 64 the keris alang having a blade of about 28 to 32 cm long, so shorter than the bahari and the reverse than what I wrote.
However Harsrinuskmo also writes in the same paragraph of page 64 that "a keris with a blade longer than 32 cm is usually called Keris Java"

Actually the names keris alang and keris bahari may designate the same type of keris but in different areas?

Finally Gardner page 27 describes a long Sumatran rapier kris as keris panjang, a medium one as keris alang, and a short one as keris pendek but his book is also often inaccurate. On page 45 he describes a long keris panjang as keris bahari...
This is why I would like to get the opinion of our Malaysian members

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2020, 10:12 PM

Jean, as we both know, names and everything else about the keris change from place to place, or perhaps more correctly appear to change from place to place.

Gardner's supposed inaccuracies might not be inaccurate at all, they could just reflect the opinions of his informants and perhaps in the places where those informants came from these were the generally accepted ideas. At least Gardner did have considerable contact with the culture & society he wrote about, even if it was from the throne of a colonial officer.

If we think that we can attain some standard of universal "accuracy" in things that are keris related, we are probably trying to study the wrong thing. Keris ideas change all the time, from place to place, from time to time. It is very difficult to be absolutely certain about too much.

Even EK is not all that great. Harsrinuksmo was a journalist who had an interest in keris. Over a period of years he worked together with a gentleman from Jogja named Lumintu, who in Jogja was regarded as an ahli keris. EK was the end result of those years of journalistic information gathering and collaboration with (principally) Lumintu.

Before EK, Harsrinuksmo had produced Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional (Juli 1988), as well as a number of little booklets that dealt with things like dhapur & pamor.

EBN did not cause much of a stir in Solo, it was accepted as more or less correct --- but if we look hard enough we can find some things that are in general, not acceptable to many people.

However, when EK came out (Jan. 2004) it generated a lot of criticism amongst the highly regarded keris people in Solo. Some of that was possibly just another example of the ongoing antipathy between Solo & Jogja, but other of it was certainly questionable. The two most often heard comments (translated) from authorities in Solo were:-

"where did he get all these names and words from?"

and

"it is a great pity that people do not learn about the keris before they try to write about the keris"

If I open my own EK I can see question marks, crosses and comments on a very large number of pages.

However, and this is the big plus for EK, it has given a common source of reference to people who do not know much about keris. On the ground, in Solo, & I am certain in many other places in Indonesia & Malaysia, we will find variation between the local terms & ideas in those places, and the terms & ideas in EK. But for people in New York, London, Paris, Rome & etc, who have only spent time in the Keris Heartland through books and TV documentaries, EK provides a lexicon that permits these people to communicate.

It is best to be cautious in forming firm opinions when it comes to keris related matters.

13th September 2020, 10:17 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,028	Yes Jean, that is so. and Thank you Mickey. So as a word "penyalang" is simply the name of type of keris in Malaysia, and a place name, no actual meaning as a stand alone word. This is in accord with my understanding, but the "pen" prefix would seem to permit it to stand alone. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 13th September 2020 at 10:37 AM.

13th September 2020, 11:38 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	It seems to me that the name "keris alang" is used in Malaysia (and perhaps East Sumatra?) to identify a kris similar to the keris bahari (blade length about 30 cm) and the keris panjang (blade length about 55 cm) with a scabbard in dua hari bulan (moon crescent) style, but with a intermediate blade length of about 40 cm. Other opinions from Malaysian members (where are you guys?) are welcome.

13th September 2020, 12:33 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Great stuff here! Thanks guys!

13th September 2020, 12:57 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,028	Jean, I am not literate in Malay, you probably know that BI and Malay are mutually intelligible, but when we dig a little below the surface there are differences. Thus, I tend to rely on Wilkinson for clarification of Malay words that I do not understand. "alang" does appear in Wilkinson and has a lot of applications, one of the Wilkinson applications is:- "keris alang:- a short straight dagger". So yes, as the K. bahari is somewhat shorter than the original "long keris" I guess you could be right. However, EK gives bahari length as 42 - 45cm, and if a keris alang is only 30cm, then it is shorter again than a bahari. Incidentally, what i wrote about K. Bangkalan & etc was from memory, I could not recall where I had read it, but I have now found my source, it is EK page 87, and my memory is not so great, because it is a "Keris Bangkinang", not a "Keris Bangkalan", as you so correctly pointed out. I have no personal opinions in this matter, I have nil field experience in the area from which these keris come, I am only repeating the opinions of others.

13th September 2020, 10:12 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,028	Jean, as we both know, names and everything else about the keris change from place to place, or perhaps more correctly appear to change from place to place. Gardner's supposed inaccuracies might not be inaccurate at all, they could just reflect the opinions of his informants and perhaps in the places where those informants came from these were the generally accepted ideas. At least Gardner did have considerable contact with the culture & society he wrote about, even if it was from the throne of a colonial officer. If we think that we can attain some standard of universal "accuracy" in things that are keris related, we are probably trying to study the wrong thing. Keris ideas change all the time, from place to place, from time to time. It is very difficult to be absolutely certain about too much. Even EK is not all that great. Harsrinuksmo was a journalist who had an interest in keris. Over a period of years he worked together with a gentleman from Jogja named Lumintu, who in Jogja was regarded as an ahli keris. EK was the end result of those years of journalistic information gathering and collaboration with (principally) Lumintu. Before EK, Harsrinuksmo had produced Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional (Juli 1988), as well as a number of little booklets that dealt with things like dhapur & pamor. EBN did not cause much of a stir in Solo, it was accepted as more or less correct --- but if we look hard enough we can find some things that are in general, not acceptable to many people. However, when EK came out (Jan. 2004) it generated a lot of criticism amongst the highly regarded keris people in Solo. Some of that was possibly just another example of the ongoing antipathy between Solo & Jogja, but other of it was certainly questionable. The two most often heard comments (translated) from authorities in Solo were:- "where did he get all these names and words from?" and "it is a great pity that people do not learn about the keris before they try to write about the keris" If I open my own EK I can see question marks, crosses and comments on a very large number of pages. However, and this is the big plus for EK, it has given a common source of reference to people who do not know much about keris. On the ground, in Solo, & I am certain in many other places in Indonesia & Malaysia, we will find variation between the local terms & ideas in those places, and the terms & ideas in EK. But for people in New York, London, Paris, Rome & etc, who have only spent time in the Keris Heartland through books and TV documentaries, EK provides a lexicon that permits these people to communicate. It is best to be cautious in forming firm opinions when it comes to keris related matters.