Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th March 2005, 11:08 PM   #61
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,587
Thumbs up Most Excellent

Three cheers for you Wolviex , without your instigation it may never have happened .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2005, 11:36 PM   #62
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

WOW!!! Nice restoration. I am still curious if you ever got a more definitive I.D. on the stones. They still look far too brilliant to be rock crystal to me. Also wonder if you were ever able to determine exactly where this piece was collected from? Give your specialists a pat on the back form us, eh.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2005, 12:29 PM   #63
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

Hi Wolviex,

I feel happy for the keris. Could you shake the hands of the museum specialists for me? Tell them they did great.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2005, 10:16 AM   #64
wolviex
Member
 
wolviex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Poland, Krakow
Posts: 418
Arrow

Thank you for this kind words, I appreciate it. I'm happy you like it

Regards
wolviex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2005, 11:53 AM   #65
DAHenkel
Member
 
DAHenkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 125
Default

Not to re-hash what we've already gone over before but I am still not at all convinced that this is a Madurese keris. There are more than a few examples that are very similar to this piece and - with the notable exception of the highly unreliable Hasrinuksmo they are attributed to Bali.

I'm not denying that the topengan may have been used in Madura though I would contend that by at least the 19th century that had ceased. We have in our museum's collection an excavated example dated to about the 15th century from East Java. I know the blade does not look like a typical Balinese keris but then again I've seen more than a few keris like that from Bali. I suspect that in most cases these are either very early examples, ie. 16th or 17th c. or perhaps even later imports or trade blades.

I'd really love to hear what Empu Kumis has to say about this piece because among us he has perhaps the most keris experience on Bali. However, in general, can anyone show me a similar piece that is accurately and incontrovertibly provenanced to Madura?
DAHenkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2005, 12:04 PM   #66
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,175
Default

The restoration is well done. The ones who performed it did a good job. But the credits are also to you Wolviex. You brought the attention of them to this piece.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2005, 01:05 PM   #67
Kiai Carita
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 91
Default

The wood of this keris is called Timoho and the type of Timoho is Timaha Pelet Ceplok Banteng or Belang Sapi, meaning Timoho wood with stains like the markings on a Banteng or a Cow, although in Bali the wood is called Purnamasadha, I believe the Latin name is Kleinhovia Hospita L. The same wood is used for the sheath and also for the danganan which is in the cecekahan style. This type of Timoho is believed by some to bring prosperity.

The ganja iras is an indiction that the keris was made by a village rather than a Kraton Mpu. It might also mean that it was a very old blade as the dapur would seem to be a Java brojol ganja iras. The dapur brojol is one of the oldest shapes of keris blades. The fact that the warangka was not made for this blade indicates that an antique dealer was involved. From a purely physical point of view the warangka with all the gold is more valuable than the blade. The owner of the blade would have made a new warangka specially for his blade if he felt that he needed one. Having a warangka that fits perfectly is an important part of the symbolism of the keris.

Salam keris
Kiai Carita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2005, 02:44 PM   #68
Bill
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 327
Default

is it possible that this keris has a seperate ganga? it appears that if there was a scratch line it has been layered unto. doesn't seem to layers deterioting off as much as layers added & then deterioting? has there ever been the practice of adding layers to a old blade; for whatever purpose?
Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2011, 09:02 PM   #69
Jussi M.
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
Default

Up
Jussi M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2017, 01:16 PM   #70
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

Hi Wolviex,

Reading your initiated topic about these highly desirable krisses I came across a pic in the collection of the Tropen Museum in Amsterdam. Seems like a twin to me! The pic is rather of poor quality.
Attached Images
 
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2017, 01:43 PM   #71
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

Another look-a-like from the museum.
Attached Images
 
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2017, 03:15 PM   #72
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,500
Default

I have moved this thread to the Keris Forum, which did not exist when it was first opened.
Paul, are there also images of the blades for these keris on the museum website.
I think many, if not most of us, came around to the belief that the original keris posted may well be from Madura rather than Bali. What origins did the Tropen Museum attribute them to?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #73
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

The collection of the museum can be reached thru this link:
http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/Default.aspx

It is hard to find what you're looking for among the vast majority of pics as the they are so small. I could only trace back one of them. There was a brief description of the outer features and Bali was mentioned as a provenance.
This pic of the blade shows kinatah but that's just about all you can tell about it.
Attached Images
  
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2017, 07:37 PM   #74
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,500
Default

Thanks Paul. I have surfed the Tropen Museum site a number of times.
The photo as uploaded here is a bit too small to tell much, but it certainly looks like it could be a Bali blade.
If you read through this thread you will see why some of us thought that perhaps the originally posted keris may have been from Madura instead.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 08:03 AM   #75
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

Fully agree and this 'high rank' Madura kris (?) definitely shows typical Madurese features.
The kinatah is 18 or maybe 22 carat gold? Additional kinatah makes it a precious piece. There is red 'dust' in the gilt pendok, just for decoration purpose or is there a relation with a Keraton?
Attached Images
 
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 08:58 AM   #76
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,070
Default

Hello Paul,
The kinatah of your kris looks recently made or refurbished from the pics, and the blade may be Javanese?
I attach the pic of a Javanese kris with an old blade but a recently made (about 1990) silver pendok with topengan.
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 09:55 AM   #77
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

Kinatah not very old I agree nor superbly made but blade has the perfect fit into a typical ladrang capu slot opening so why Javanese? NG pamor is a wellknown Madurese pamor.
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 10:11 AM   #78
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

Additional pic of slot.
Attached Images
 
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 10:51 AM   #79
Paul B.
Member
 
Paul B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 72
Default

Checked the blade and it measures from tip to ganja: 37 cm and showing a wide base and clotchy pamor so doubtfree a Madurese blade.
Paul B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #80
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B.
Checked the blade and it measures from tip to ganja: 37 cm and showing a wide base and clotchy pamor so doubtfree a Madurese blade.

Well Paul, i won't make any claims of origin since the photos provided don't give me a very good look at this blade, but Madura is right next to Jawa and it is considered a part of East Jawa. I would not be surprised to find a few Javanese blades in custom-fit Madurese dress. So that the blade is neatly fitted to the sheath is not really an indication that the blade was made in Madura.
I also don't see why you site the blade length as evidence of Madurese origin. 37 cm is well within the expected lengths of Javanese blades as well.
I am having a hard time seeing this kinatah as "superbly made", but maybe we just need to see closer, sharper images to understand what you see with the blade in hand.
BTW, we are here in this thread already so we should continue here, but the only similarity this keris has to the ones under discussion is the topengan. This keris probably would have been better suited to its own separate thread. Just something to think about for future postings.

Last edited by David : 20th December 2017 at 04:56 AM.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 05:37 PM   #81
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,715
Default

Let us look at this keris as it is supposed to seen.

Now, just exactly what classification are we looking at here?

Is it Madura, or is it one of the Javanese classifications?

Bear this in mind:- when we classify a keris, that is to say, when we propose a tangguh, we do not say "Jawa" first and then decide upon the tangguh, no, we firstly try to align the blade features with the classification indicators, we decide our tangguh opinion, and only then can we say:- "Jawa".

So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit?
Attached Images
 
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 07:12 PM   #82
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B.
Kinatah not very old I agree nor superbly made but blade has the perfect fit into a typical ladrang capu slot opening so why Javanese? NG pamor is a wellknown Madurese pamor.


Hello Paul,
Ladrang Capu is a Central Javanese type of warangka (see book KJ page 306) but yours is clearly an East Javansese type (also found in Madura).
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 07:34 PM   #83
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit?


Hello Alan,
I would not venture to assign a tangguh to this blade from the pics and just envisaged that it could be Javanese from its overall proportions and ricikan (kembang kacang, greneng) which look more Javanese than Madurese to me. I attach a pic of what I understand as a more typical wavy madurese blade.
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 07:49 PM   #84
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 869
Default

Back to square one.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2017, 08:28 PM   #85
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,715
Default

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.
Attached Images
  
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2017, 10:49 AM   #86
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.


Hello Alan,
Thank you and I won't argue anymore as we are deviating from the original subject, but would you say that every old Javanese blade (including the village and trade pieces) should be aligned to a specific tangguh?
Paul, could you please post a clear picture of the sorsoran of the blade?

Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2017, 11:30 AM   #87
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,715
Default

Absolutely not Jean --- from the classic point of view.

But it seems to be obvious to me that the current crop of collectors, the bulk of whom are from outside the society and the social level for whom the tangguh system was relevant, now have decided that a tangguh can be stuck onto every keris ever made.

That's just the way it is at the moment, and I doubt that it will ever go back to the classic form.

After all, it is only an opinion, and opinions in the strictest sense are not really open to debate, but they can be discussed, which makes tangguh a wonderful method of generating conversation and social interaction.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd January 2018, 08:45 PM   #88
Bjorn
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 100
Send a message via MSN to Bjorn
Default

The Dutch Rijksmuseum also has similar topengan pieces in its collection. Both are attributed to Madura.

For photo one, the description reads:
J.C. Baud, Governor-General of the Dutch East Indies, was presented with this kris by Mangkoe Adie Ningrat, ruler of Pamekasan, during his inspection tour on Java and Madura in 1834. The exchange of gifts between native rulers and Dutch officials was important in maintaining good diplomatic relations. A kris, as a symbol of power that protected its wearer against evil, was a highly appropriate gift.

For photo 2:
This kris was presented to King William I by the Sultan of Madura, Cakra Adinigrat VIII, in 1835. In an accompanying letter, the sultan expressed a thousand thanks for his appointment as a Commander in the Order of the Dutch Lion. His gift to the king was a kris ‘made at my kraton [= palace]’. Two of the 117 diamonds decorating the scabbard are missing.
Attached Images
  
Bjorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:30 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.