Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th November 2011, 01:35 PM   #1
DenisVT
Member
 
DenisVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kiyv, Ukraine
Posts: 7
Default Unique silver technique (handles & scabbards)

Please, take a look at this exotic silver work that imitate shark / ray skin. First one (lower) is on the handle and scabbard of saber in Chernigiv historical museum (Ukraine). Suppose that exhibit has Lvov' origin (XVII c).
Another one (upper) is from Moscow Kremlin – ceremonial saber of Russian emperors, also f.h. XVII c. (Local work of moscow' armourers).
Personally I never encountered something like this elsewhere.
Strongly need your help, colleagues! May be somebody knows about resembling tradition in metalworking, or saw close things somewhere? (reference in future book guaranteed )
Attached Images
  

Last edited by DenisVT : 12th November 2011 at 07:36 PM.
DenisVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2011, 04:20 PM   #2
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,672
Default

they might be ceremonial, but they do look very functional. gorgeous. wonder how many man-years of labour those took. hope the tsar appreciated them. the bottom one's grip side strap has some wear to it, so he must have liked it alot.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2011, 08:08 AM   #3
DenisVT
Member
 
DenisVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kiyv, Ukraine
Posts: 7
Default Сorrection

Yes, both absolutely functional.
I have to correct topic. The issue is:
In Kremlin (Orujeinaya palata) saved several ceremonial (personal) sabers of Russian tsars (XVII c.). Two of them produced with silver foil craft – imitation of ray skin. Handle of one and fragment of scabbard of another one, you may see on upper picture.
At the same time we have saber from Lvov Armenian’ armourers (my opinion), that use the same technique (feel the connection?). You can see it on the lower pictures. Now I am trying to search additional argue to suggest relations between Kremlin and Lvov armourers.
One of such fact is that one of the famous tsar' saber of 1618 (without this technique!), made by armourer Illya Prosvit (see the last, bottom foto in this topic) – Russian historians think, that he was from Lvov.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by DenisVT : 13th November 2011 at 07:02 PM.
DenisVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2011, 12:56 PM   #4
Richard Furrer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
Posts: 149
Default

Denis,
To me it looks like a variation of the same technique used by Japanese Koshira makers (fittings makers).
The effect is called Nanako.
Each "dot" is placed individually..not a simple thing to do well. Some say it is done with a multi-head punch, but this is not the case.

Ric
Richard Furrer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2011, 03:01 PM   #5
DenisVT
Member
 
DenisVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kiyv, Ukraine
Posts: 7
Default

Thanks, this is all of sudden thing. I don't know a lot about Japanese craft techniques, but this fact is very interesting.
Unfortunately, it can't help. As for me, it can prove only, that nothing new can appear under the sun.
Seems this European variety of chasing must be much simpler than Japanese.

Last edited by DenisVT : 14th November 2011 at 05:31 PM.
DenisVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2011, 03:38 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,694
Default

I believe this technique is described in "The Smallsword in England" (J.D.Aylward 1945, p.57) where swords were made in the 'Tonquinese' style. Tonquin (Tonkin) is the northermost part of Vietnam near Yunnan China and on the gulf. It had been said that this elaborate style had been made in the VOC factory there, but Dampier (1688) suggested contrary and that these type hilts were likely made for European markets in thier factories in Peking.
The Dutch brought Chinese artisans to the Netherlands where they worked using Dutch and Solingen blades.

Apparantly the key feature of these Tonquinese style hilts (usually on smallswords) was using black 'Shakudo' bronze, a soft alloy of antimony, gold and copper (4% gold, 96% copper). With the use of this material in fine, thin sheet, the intaglio (background) was known as 'nanako' (as mentioned by Richard) and described as 'fish roe gilt'. The sword shown and notes pertain to c.1710-20.

It is known that Chinese workmen also entered into East Europe shops as well and certainly seems possible to Lvov, where many Polish/Tatar weapons were produced. Regarding connection between Russia and Lvov I would suggest looking into Tula where the finest Russian arms were produced (the massive Zlatoust was of course more rank and file).

The popularity of rayskin was taken from oriental weapons decoration around early 17th century. As obtaining actual rayskin was often difficult, by the late 17th-early 18th also used was sharkskin . In the 18th c. a faux rayskin was produced in France imitating the calcified papillae of the rayskin by using rough, untanned shagreen (horsehide) and imbedding seeds and pressing through soft cloth. It was then dyed often with green dye from reverse.
This process by leatherworker of Louis XV named Jean Claude Galluchat (d. 1774) and termed for him 'galuchat'.

Perhaps similar application might have been used via repousse method with seeds pressed under the thin alloy sheet?
The same intaglio or background is seen on nielloed weapons from Daghestan, Tblisi and others perhaps Tula.

The Armenian arms makers in Lvov working in the reign of King John Sobieski (1673-96) very much favored oriental styling using niello, gold and silver inlay and it would seem quite possibly this much desired oriental style. Naturally more research but at least this might offer a start.

All best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2011, 05:06 AM   #7
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,402
Default WOW

Jim, your treatise on arms and armour never cease to amaze me and DenisVT, thank you for asking a very interesting question.

Gav


Hey Gav, thank you!!!! I told ya Aylward is a treasure chest!!!

Jim


* oops I meant to quote not edit

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 15th November 2011 at 03:45 PM.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2011, 07:17 PM   #8
DenisVT
Member
 
DenisVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kiyv, Ukraine
Posts: 7
Default

Thank you Jim for exhaustive excursus on historical ways of 'galuchat'. Freebooter partly rights: most of this information known to me, but nevertheless - great maintenance for my pictures (time to think on establishing collective popular edition like Osprey )
I never thought of problem from this side – unfortunately now we have not any information about present of Chinese workmen (especially skilled craftsmen) in Lvov (the system of city production is well studied today). But the distant influence – may be, and first of all in Istanbul that was in close craft and merchant relation with Lvov.
Personally I think that it’s local Lvov’ work – a lot of well-known European and Armenian silversmiths works there (also in Istanbul). Especially as the technology of such production was not complicate – much harder must be the process of necessary stamp (template) making.
The tsar’ sabers were made in the oldest, most authoritative and powerful on that time armory of Moscow Kremlin. Tula and several other armory centers (more of youngest Zlatoust) are not related with our subject – we speak about specific samples and techniques.
The arms &armor production and the most of medieval Moscow craftsmen are well-known too today. For example we know about Iranian workmen, who were sent to Russia by Persian Shahs and worked in Orujeinaja Palata till the end of their life… But we know nothing about Chinese workmen there.
Anyway, thanks for detailed post and for creative thoughts also.
DenisVT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2011, 02:38 AM   #9
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,694
Default

Im very glad I could offer some information and thoughts Denis, and thank you for the opportunity. Very interesting topic and I hope you will keep us updated in any new developments.
All best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:29 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.