Very Old Moro Kris

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 09:07 PM

This is an old one that has seen better days, but it is interesting for several reasons.

First, it has been modified by another culture, probably a Spanish colonist. The hilt is a typical Spanish style, and originally had small brass ferrules at either end, but the top one is missing. The hilt has only a partial tang construction (unlike many similar Spanish-style hilts, such as commonly seen in the more northern areas of the Philippines). At some point, the hilt has been painted gold, but much has worn off.

Second, the top half of the gangya is missing, and obviously there is no asang asang.

Third the blade is clearly of an old form, at least early 19th C. or older. It is covered with a dark patina, especially on the gangya, and the file work on the gangya has been removed and/or worn away with time. Evidence of lamination can still be seen along the blade and numerous deep edge nicks speak to heavy use at some time.

Lastly, there is a very interesting inscription on the gangya. The chiseled numbers are old and have been on the blade for some time because there is evidence of corrosion of some of the numbers which blends into neighboring pitting on the blade. As you can see from the pictures, the numbers 13...2 are legible while the third figure could be a 5, 8, or 9. This is probably not a credible date -- the arrival of Europeans in the southern Philippines post dates the 14th C. -- but it raises some questions as to what the inscription means on this old kris.

Comments, ideas

Ian.

Very Old Moro Kris with Spanish Style Hilt

Rick · 22nd May 2005, 10:33 PM

Is this yours Ian ?
How thick is the blade at the base ?

Some observations / opinions , YMMV .

The angle on the tail of the gangya is all wrong for it to ever have had a separate piece on top .
There is an amazing lack of detail in the 'trunk' area , even providing for wear and age and it looks somehow wrong .
The pecetan and sogokan are barely hinted at , hardly even rudimentary .
On the whole this piece strikes me as a kris made by a non native source .
One more thing , the waves are clumsily executed and uneven .

A kris like object if you will .

Let me wildly speculate could this be an early trade kris made outside of the area for barter with the locals , English , American , even Spanish ?

tom hyle · 22nd May 2005, 11:27 PM

One of those blades where it's hard to tell crudity from corrosion, at least in a photo. The grooves have a forged in look? There does not look to be a seperate gonjo, and if there ever was one it must have been a straight joining, which is not usually seen on Moro pieces, but then if it's a particularly old piece......could that be a Moslem date?

Aurangzeb · 22nd May 2005, 11:40 PM

Hi all!

If that is a muslim year it translates to 1961.

Hopefully this chould help with a date.

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 11:41 PM

Rick:

It is mine -- a recent acquisition off eBay. I will add dimensions later tonight.

Here are some more pictures showing a side-by-side comparison with a more traditional old Moro kris (late 18th or early 19th C.).

Ian.

EDIT: Here are the dimensions of these two swords.

Top one (Mystery Kris)
OAL = 22.75 inches
Blade = 18 inches
Width of gangya = 3.75 inches
Thickness of blade just below handle = 3/8 inch

Bottom one (Old Moro Kris)
OAL = 21.75 inches
Blade = 17.25 inches
Width of gangya = 4 inches
Thickness of blade just below handle = 1/2 inch

Old Moro Kris with Spanish Hilt (2)

Rick · 23rd May 2005, 12:05 AM

IMO , when viewed next to that old beauty it only serves to accentuate its alieness .
Of course smiths come in all different skill levels but still it just doesn't look look 'native' to me .

A very interesting piece .

Federico · 23rd May 2005, 01:10 AM

The number could always be an accession number (hmmm...is that the right term?). Ive seen some museums do horrible things to blades they accept (well this is not something that all museums do, but well some have). Anyways, agree with Rick, there is something odd about this kris/keris, something that goes beyond just mere corrosion. It would seem that all we really have to ID this kris would be the dapur, and even given more we've had plenty of argument over the older style kris. Especially given the lack of other features (particularly no fretwork, no detail around the trunk, no detail around where the arrowhead could be if it is an arrowhead, etc...), at least for me, it would be hard to peg this kris/keris one way or the other.

22nd May 2005, 09:07 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Very Old Moro Kris This is an old one that has seen better days, but it is interesting for several reasons. First, it has been modified by another culture, probably a Spanish colonist. The hilt is a typical Spanish style, and originally had small brass ferrules at either end, but the top one is missing. The hilt has only a partial tang construction (unlike many similar Spanish-style hilts, such as commonly seen in the more northern areas of the Philippines). At some point, the hilt has been painted gold, but much has worn off. Second, the top half of the gangya is missing, and obviously there is no asang asang. Third the blade is clearly of an old form, at least early 19th C. or older. It is covered with a dark patina, especially on the gangya, and the file work on the gangya has been removed and/or worn away with time. Evidence of lamination can still be seen along the blade and numerous deep edge nicks speak to heavy use at some time. Lastly, there is a very interesting inscription on the gangya. The chiseled numbers are old and have been on the blade for some time because there is evidence of corrosion of some of the numbers which blends into neighboring pitting on the blade. As you can see from the pictures, the numbers 13...2 are legible while the third figure could be a 5, 8, or 9. This is probably not a credible date -- the arrival of Europeans in the southern Philippines post dates the 14th C. -- but it raises some questions as to what the inscription means on this old kris. Comments, ideas Ian. *Very Old Moro Kris with Spanish Style Hilt*

22nd May 2005, 10:33 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Fascinating ! Is this yours Ian ? How thick is the blade at the base ? Some observations / opinions , YMMV . The angle on the tail of the gangya is all wrong for it to ever have had a separate piece on top . There is an amazing lack of detail in the 'trunk' area , even providing for wear and age and it looks somehow wrong . The pecetan and sogokan are barely hinted at , hardly even rudimentary . On the whole this piece strikes me as a kris made by a non native source . One more thing , the waves are clumsily executed and uneven . A kris like object if you will . Let me wildly speculate could this be an early trade kris made outside of the area for barter with the locals , English , American , even Spanish ?

22nd May 2005, 11:41 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	More pictures Rick: It is mine -- a recent acquisition off eBay. I will add dimensions later tonight. Here are some more pictures showing a side-by-side comparison with a more traditional old Moro kris (late 18th or early 19th C.). Ian. EDIT: Here are the dimensions of these two swords. Top one (Mystery Kris) OAL = 22.75 inches Blade = 18 inches Width of gangya = 3.75 inches Thickness of blade just below handle = 3/8 inch Bottom one (Old Moro Kris) OAL = 21.75 inches Blade = 17.25 inches Width of gangya = 4 inches Thickness of blade just below handle = 1/2 inch Old Moro Kris with Spanish Hilt (2) Last edited by Ian; 24th May 2005 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Dimensions addd for the two swords

22nd May 2005, 11:27 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	One of those blades where it's hard to tell crudity from corrosion, at least in a photo. The grooves have a forged in look? There does not look to be a seperate gonjo, and if there ever was one it must have been a straight joining, which is not usually seen on Moro pieces, but then if it's a particularly old piece......could that be a Moslem date?

22nd May 2005, 11:40 PM	#4
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi all! If that is a muslim year it translates to 1961. Hopefully this chould help with a date.

23rd May 2005, 12:05 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	IMO , when viewed next to that old beauty it only serves to accentuate its alieness . Of course smiths come in all different skill levels but still it just doesn't look look 'native' to me . A very interesting piece .

23rd May 2005, 01:10 AM	#7
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	The number could always be an accession number (hmmm...is that the right term?). Ive seen some museums do horrible things to blades they accept (well this is not something that all museums do, but well some have). Anyways, agree with Rick, there is something odd about this kris/keris, something that goes beyond just mere corrosion. It would seem that all we really have to ID this kris would be the dapur, and even given more we've had plenty of argument over the older style kris. Especially given the lack of other features (particularly no fretwork, no detail around the trunk, no detail around where the arrowhead could be if it is an arrowhead, etc...), at least for me, it would be hard to peg this kris/keris one way or the other.