Kindjal or Qama maker's mark information requested

laEspadaAncha · 9th December 2009, 06:33 PM

Hello -

I recently acquired this piece - I collect for representation of form and found this to be a nice representation of the precision fuller work I've come to associate with some kindjals. When I took possession of it, I noticed a small inscription on the obverse, neatly integrated into the etching. I don't know whether it is in Turkish, Kabardian, or Arabic, but was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on it for me...

Any input as to the origin and/or age of the piece would also be highly appreciated. From my lurking on the board, I know there are a couple members (e.g., Gess, TVV, et al) who know kindjals inside and out... has anyone ever constructed a formal typology of kindjal/qama types and subtypes (like Carter did with German WWI Ersatz bayonets)?

Thanks in advance -

Here's the mark, on the obverse side (look to the middle of the photo):

Here's a picture of the fullering on the reverse:

A couple of the full piece:

And a close up of the hilt - horn grips with steel mounts... there is some small design work on the steel:

Any and all input is appreciated, and thanks for the same...

TVV · 9th December 2009, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hello -

Any input as to the origin and/or age of the piece would also be highly appreciated. From my lurking on the board, I know there are a couple members (e.g., Gess, TVV, et al) who know kindjals inside and out... has anyone ever constructed a formal typology of kindjal/qama types and subtypes (like Carter did with German WWI Ersatz bayonets)?

Thanks in advance -

Here's the mark, on the obverse side (look to the middle of the photo):

Any and all input is appreciated, and thanks for the same...

While I am flattered, I certainly do not belong in the group of knidjal experts together with Ariel, Gess and others.

I agree that there is a mark next to the floral scroll work, but what name is it, I cannot tell, as I cannot read Arabic. Maybe Dom can help you.

The other markings on the reverse side are too small to enable us to tell anything based on them.

Unfortunately, no typology for kindjals exist, and while certain local varieties are easy to spot, such as those from the Balkans or Syria, the closer you get to the Caucasus, the blurrier it gets.

My guess (and I am prepared to be corrected on this) would be late 19th century, North-Eastern Turkey or Georgia. Nice piece, congratulations.

Regards,
Teodor

laEspadaAncha · 10th December 2009, 01:31 AM

Hello Teodor,

Thank you for your input, and by all means, allow me to include Ariel by name in my short list of requested expert opinions... You shouldn't be surprised I included you by name - relative to my complete lack of expertise on the kindjal, everyone looks like an expert to me!

BTW, it is relatively small, with an OAL of +/- 14.5 inches / 368.3 mm.

So how certain are you the script is Arabic? Using my limited (knowledge and) resources, I tried to match the script to what resources are available to me, but came up empty. I'll shoot Dom a PM requesting his input on the same. Thanks again...

Regards,

Chris

Emanuel · 10th December 2009, 03:06 AM

Hello,

Nice kindjal, fullers recall Surmene knives.

Writing does look like Arabic. Here's my attempt at translation:

fa ta _?_ reading right to left = Mustafa?

Cheers,
Emanuel

laEspadaAncha · 10th December 2009, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Hello,

Nice kindjal, fullers recall Surmene knives.

Writing does look like Arabic. Here's my attempt at translation:

fa ta _?_ reading right to left = Mustafa?

Cheers,
Emanuel

Hello Emanuel,

Thank you for the feedback, as well as for the partial translation and suggested attribution - both leads for me to pursue and all for which I am grateful.

It really is a mesmerizing knife in person...

Regards,

Chris

Gess · 10th December 2009, 12:03 PM

Hi Chris!
Thank you for the invitation. Arabic language I do not speak.

There is written the name of the master manufacturer.
Basically (my opinion), this kinjal refers to Transcaucasia. Persia: Iran, Azerbaijan ...
Good, for working (not for the parade) kinjal. The blade is made with love, horn on the handle - neatly converges with the metal (in foto).
This is the first impression.

Regards.

ariel · 10th December 2009, 12:52 PM

I would agree with the Turkish connection:
1. Relatively small size, light blade with narrowing starting very high on the blade.
2. Elaborate system of fullers ( Northern Turkey, Trabzon do come to mind).
3."Leafy" ornament on the ricasso ( similar seen on Greek or Balkan blades)
4. Handle of a "Turkish" contour
5. One-piece plate on the handle, with simple incised ornamentation.
In short, I do not see much Caucasian aura here, except for the general idea of a " kindjal"-type. But in the Caucasus, kindjals were rather massive weapons, a necessary part of the masculine image, whereas in Turkey they served a more humble, secondary role and were an equivalent of a utility knife, or a poor man's jambiya.

laEspadaAncha · 10th December 2009, 04:40 PM

Thank you both Gess and Ariel for your feedback, and for helping me to better understand the regional influences behind the creation of this knife. Any further input you might have would be similarly appreciated.

Regards,

Chris

Gess · 10th December 2009, 04:50 PM

I have to admit that the version of Ariel, more accurate.
I'm asked the Russian forum, and a very respected man confirmed Turkish origin this kinjal. Eastern Anatolia, Black Sea Turkey.
Regards.

laEspadaAncha · 10th December 2009, 06:25 PM

Very cool. And again, much appreciated. Maybe someday I will source a larger kindjal to keep this one company...

Now by chance would either/any of you have any idea where I can source a period-original replacement scabbard for a blade measuring 253.2 mm x 31.7 mm?

ariel · 10th December 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Very cool. And again, much appreciated. Maybe someday I will source a larger kindjal to keep this one company...

Now by chance would either/any of you have any idea where I can source a period-original replacement scabbard for a blade measuring 253.2 mm x 31.7 mm?

Finding a scabbard is next to impossible. You may try this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11153

laEspadaAncha · 11th December 2009, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Finding a scabbard is next to impossible. You may try this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11153

Looks like that thread is only a little over a week old. Thanks for the suggestion & the link... I'm sending him a PM tonight itself.

9th December 2009, 06:33 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Kindjal or Qama maker's mark information requested Hello - I recently acquired this piece - I collect for representation of form and found this to be a nice representation of the precision fuller work I've come to associate with some kindjals. When I took possession of it, I noticed a small inscription on the obverse, neatly integrated into the etching. I don't know whether it is in Turkish, Kabardian, or Arabic, but was hoping someone might be able to shed some light on it for me... Any input as to the origin and/or age of the piece would also be highly appreciated. From my lurking on the board, I know there are a couple members (e.g., Gess, TVV, et al) who know kindjals inside and out... has anyone ever constructed a formal typology of kindjal/qama types and subtypes (like Carter did with German WWI Ersatz bayonets)? Thanks in advance - Here's the mark, on the obverse side (look to the middle of the photo): Here's a picture of the fullering on the reverse: A couple of the full piece: And a close up of the hilt - horn grips with steel mounts... there is some small design work on the steel: Any and all input is appreciated, and thanks for the same...

10th December 2009, 01:31 AM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hello Teodor, Thank you for your input, and by all means, allow me to include Ariel by name in my short list of requested expert opinions... You shouldn't be surprised I included you by name - relative to my complete lack of expertise on the kindjal, everyone looks like an expert to me! BTW, it is relatively small, with an OAL of +/- 14.5 inches / 368.3 mm. So how certain are you the script is Arabic? Using my limited (knowledge and) resources, I tried to match the script to what resources are available to me, but came up empty. I'll shoot Dom a PM requesting his input on the same. Thanks again... Regards, Chris Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 10th December 2009 at 01:58 AM.

10th December 2009, 03:06 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Nice kindjal, fullers recall Surmene knives. Writing does look like Arabic. Here's my attempt at translation: fa ta _?_ reading right to left = Mustafa? Cheers, Emanuel

10th December 2009, 12:03 PM	#6
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	Hi Chris! Thank you for the invitation. Arabic language I do not speak. There is written the name of the master manufacturer. Basically (my opinion), this kinjal refers to Transcaucasia. Persia: Iran, Azerbaijan ... Good, for working (not for the parade) kinjal. The blade is made with love, horn on the handle - neatly converges with the metal (in foto). This is the first impression. Regards.

10th December 2009, 12:52 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would agree with the Turkish connection: 1. Relatively small size, light blade with narrowing starting very high on the blade. 2. Elaborate system of fullers ( Northern Turkey, Trabzon do come to mind). 3."Leafy" ornament on the ricasso ( similar seen on Greek or Balkan blades) 4. Handle of a "Turkish" contour 5. One-piece plate on the handle, with simple incised ornamentation. In short, I do not see much Caucasian aura here, except for the general idea of a " kindjal"-type. But in the Caucasus, kindjals were rather massive weapons, a necessary part of the masculine image, whereas in Turkey they served a more humble, secondary role and were an equivalent of a utility knife, or a poor man's jambiya.

10th December 2009, 04:40 PM	#8
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Thank you both Gess and Ariel for your feedback, and for helping me to better understand the regional influences behind the creation of this knife. Any further input you might have would be similarly appreciated. Regards, Chris

10th December 2009, 04:50 PM	#9
Gess Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 44	I have to admit that the version of Ariel, more accurate. I'm asked the Russian forum, and a very respected man confirmed Turkish origin this kinjal. Eastern Anatolia, Black Sea Turkey. Regards.

10th December 2009, 06:25 PM	#10
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Very cool. And again, much appreciated. Maybe someday I will source a larger kindjal to keep this one company... Now by chance would either/any of you have any idea where I can source a period-original replacement scabbard for a blade measuring 253.2 mm x 31.7 mm?