nimcha with "extended" ricasso

stephen wood · 6th February 2009, 07:25 PM

The ricasso on this blade strikes me as rather long - has anyone come across one like this before?

I assume that it is from the Maghreb, quite old and think that the blade might be European - I don't immediately recognise it as any particular model of sabre.

Interestingly, the guard appears to be fixed - welded possibly - to the blade.

Would appreciate any suggestions.

katana · 6th February 2009, 08:20 PM

Hi Stephen,
it would very unusual to have the guard 'welded' to the blade.

It might be a very tight 'interference' fit. The aperature through the guard (for the blade) is made to an almost perfect 'fit' ....but 'fractionally' smaller (read 'miniscule') .The guard is heated to red ....the metal expands very slightly (making the 'hole' larger) allowing the guard to be positioned on the blade.....as the guard cools ..it effectively shrinks tight to the blade. Over time, corrosion and electrolytic action would eventually "rust weld" them together.

Regards David

stephen wood · 6th February 2009, 08:32 PM

...that seems like a perfect explanation...there is, as you say, an overlay of rust in the area which covers any "join".

Any suggestions as to age?

katana · 6th February 2009, 10:42 PM

Hi Stephen,
are there no markings at all ?
The fullers on the blade seem very 'square' ie the 'walls' look straight with no 'curve'...is that the case ? I don't recall a European blade having this feature (but my knowledge of these is 'limited'

). Hopefully Jim might be able to ID.
The sword looks to be well made so quite likely late 19th C or earlier. Nimcha, are still made today...but my understanding is that early 20th C onwards ...the quality deteriated.

How is the pommel fixed to the tang ?

Regards David

stephen wood · 6th February 2009, 11:05 PM

...it's peened and rounded off very smoothly. It's possible to see the circular end of the tang in the centre of the pommel - which is rather like a brazil nut pommel. No visible markings, signs of old sharpening. What do you mean by "walls"?

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2009, 11:26 PM

This is probably one of the most unusual Moroccan sa'if ('nimchas') I have seen, in its very workmanlike appearance. That is, it is almost a nimcha produced industrially, by the numbers. The entire piece is rather undimensional, and appears to have been produced in a munitions sense. The guard being welded to the blade would make the sword quite unservicable, that is unable to undergo repairs or alterations. These swords were typically hilted locally and indeed using European blades. There is a possibility of this being a theatrical piece I would imagine, as it would present the appearance of a Moroccan sa'if, though without the unmistakeable craftsmanship usually seen in these hilts.

The long ricasso, and square blocked channels or fullers are atypical of any blades I have ever seen, they usually are rounded as the tool is withdrawn from the blade.

A most interesting anomaly, and look forward to hearing if anyone else has seen anything like this.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 7th February 2009, 01:03 AM

Could it simply be missing the hilt? It is not unimaginable that a horn hilt may have broken into several pieces, especially if it was rhino and somebody wanted the material for another use (say, Chinese traditional medicine).
Regards,
Teodor

stephen wood · 7th February 2009, 01:28 AM

...yes, I'm sure that it originally had a grip. It does seem rather old - it has an archaic feel to it. The grip must have simply broken or fell apart.

katana · 7th February 2009, 01:38 AM

The guard on this one seems very similar...

http://therionarms.com/sold/therionarms_c473.html

stephen wood · 7th February 2009, 02:03 AM

...yes it does. I understand that the Maghreb examples have more substantial iron/steel guards. Did I mention evidence of sharpening?

I wonder if this gentleman has been posted here before?

stephen wood · 7th February 2009, 02:04 AM

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...yes it does. I understand that the Maghreb examples have more substantial iron/steel guards. Did I mention evidence of sharpening?

I wonder if this gentleman has been posted here before?

Dont recall if this has been posted before, but its a great illustration!
Interesting noting the 17th century attribution also...reveals how early this well established hilt form has been around. A great deal of pride and certain affection went into fashioning these hilts by Maghreb armourers, and even the simpler hilts reflected skilled workmanship.
It is also interesting to note that the 'nimcha' was even known in England in these times, and wealthy merchants and nobles had acquired these in some cases in trade with Maghreb ports. This contact was not without issue, as it is known that 'Barbary Pirates' raided as far as the English coast and of course even farther north.

Thanks for noting the sharpening.....that would hopefully eliminate the theatrical suggestion I had noted

All best regards,
Jim

6th February 2009, 07:25 PM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	nimcha with "extended" ricasso The ricasso on this blade strikes me as rather long - has anyone come across one like this before? I assume that it is from the Maghreb, quite old and think that the blade might be European - I don't immediately recognise it as any particular model of sabre. Interestingly, the guard appears to be fixed - welded possibly - to the blade. Would appreciate any suggestions. Attached Images

6th February 2009, 11:05 PM	#5
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...it's peened and rounded off very smoothly. It's possible to see the circular end of the tang in the centre of the pommel - which is rather like a brazil nut pommel. No visible markings, signs of old sharpening. What do you mean by "walls"? Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 6th February 2009 at 11:48 PM.

7th February 2009, 02:03 AM	#10
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...yes it does. I understand that the Maghreb examples have more substantial iron/steel guards. Did I mention evidence of sharpening? I wonder if this gentleman has been posted here before? Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 7th February 2009 at 11:27 AM.

7th February 2009, 02:04 AM	#11
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Last edited by stephen wood; 7th February 2009 at 02:28 AM.

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6th February 2009, 08:20 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Stephen, it would very unusual to have the guard 'welded' to the blade. It might be a very tight 'interference' fit. The aperature through the guard (for the blade) is made to an almost perfect 'fit' ....but 'fractionally' smaller (read 'miniscule') .The guard is heated to red ....the metal expands very slightly (making the 'hole' larger) allowing the guard to be positioned on the blade.....as the guard cools ..it effectively shrinks tight to the blade. Over time, corrosion and electrolytic action would eventually "rust weld" them together. Regards David

6th February 2009, 08:32 PM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...that seems like a perfect explanation...there is, as you say, an overlay of rust in the area which covers any "join". Any suggestions as to age?

6th February 2009, 10:42 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Stephen, are there no markings at all ? The fullers on the blade seem very 'square' ie the 'walls' look straight with no 'curve'...is that the case ? I don't recall a European blade having this feature (but my knowledge of these is 'limited' ). Hopefully Jim might be able to ID. The sword looks to be well made so quite likely late 19th C or earlier. Nimcha, are still made today...but my understanding is that early 20th C onwards ...the quality deteriated. How is the pommel fixed to the tang ? Regards David

6th February 2009, 11:26 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,731	This is probably one of the most unusual Moroccan sa'if ('nimchas') I have seen, in its very workmanlike appearance. That is, it is almost a nimcha produced industrially, by the numbers. The entire piece is rather undimensional, and appears to have been produced in a munitions sense. The guard being welded to the blade would make the sword quite unservicable, that is unable to undergo repairs or alterations. These swords were typically hilted locally and indeed using European blades. There is a possibility of this being a theatrical piece I would imagine, as it would present the appearance of a Moroccan sa'if, though without the unmistakeable craftsmanship usually seen in these hilts. The long ricasso, and square blocked channels or fullers are atypical of any blades I have ever seen, they usually are rounded as the tool is withdrawn from the blade. A most interesting anomaly, and look forward to hearing if anyone else has seen anything like this. All best regards, Jim

7th February 2009, 01:03 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Could it simply be missing the hilt? It is not unimaginable that a horn hilt may have broken into several pieces, especially if it was rhino and somebody wanted the material for another use (say, Chinese traditional medicine). Regards, Teodor

7th February 2009, 01:28 AM	#8
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...yes, I'm sure that it originally had a grip. It does seem rather old - it has an archaic feel to it. The grip must have simply broken or fell apart.

7th February 2009, 01:38 AM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The guard on this one seems very similar... http://therionarms.com/sold/therionarms_c473.html