New private bidder rules for sales on ebay.

spiral · 24th November 2006, 01:57 PM

There New private bidder rules for sales on ebay. Not sure if its ebay UK only or worldwide.

Any & ALL sales over £100 will have bidders identitys hidden. No choice.

There sales junk reckon its in the customers intrests... yeah right!

Up go the prices!

Here there website info...

Spiral.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policie...memberids.html

Safeguarding Member IDs: FAQs
Safeguarding Member IDs is a new approach to auction-style listings that offers more privacy for our members through changing how bidding information is displayed.

Below you will find answers to the most frequently asked questions regarding this change.

What is Safeguarding Member IDs all about?
The Safeguarding Member IDs project is a new approach to auction-style listings that offers more privacy for our members through changing how bidding information is displayed. We believe that this change will help to balance the need for openness and transparency in the marketplace with the need to protect our Community of members from the threats that have appeared as the Internet has flourished.

We also believe the Safeguarding Member IDs project provides the Community with enough information about the bidders involved in an auction-style listing for them to feel confident in placing a bid -- without revealing actual User IDs. We're implementing this new system on listings where the high bid is £100 or greater, which is where we believe it can have the greatest positive impact. The bid information for listings where the bid is lower than £100 will display as it does today. However, we will continue to monitor the situation, and this threshold may change in future.

Here's What Will Change:

On the bid history page for each listing we’ll replace User IDs with aliases (such as Bidder 1, Bidder 2 and Bidder 3) in the order that bidders place their first bid. For each bidder involved in a listing, we’ll display the number of bids that they've placed in unique categories, a range that their feedback score falls within (eg: 10-49), their percentage of positive feedback, their length of time as an eBay member, and the number of bids they’ve placed on the item. At the end of a listing, the winning bidder’s User ID will be displayed on the item page.

Please note: Sellers will still be able to access bidder information on their listings through the bid history page and the My eBay selling table.

In My eBay, members will no longer have access to the high-bidder column from bid and watch tables.

On the item page, you’ll only be able to see the high-bidder ID if you are the signed-in seller of the item or the signed-in high bidder.

Through the Advanced Search by Bidder link, we’ll only show items that the bidder has won within the last 30 days.

Lee · 24th November 2006, 02:15 PM

I think this can only reduce confidence in the ebay marketplace.

spiral · 24th November 2006, 03:00 PM

Well it appears its UK and Australian ebay sites at time bieng and only Motors on eBay.com {US}

But since 90% of what I buy is UK based that doesnt help me.

I guess Americans will just stop buying from UK because to them it will all look like private auctions? Crazy!

I think the "laptop & mobile selling branch of ebayNigeria or ebaychina" though this one up.

Spiral

Rick · 24th November 2006, 03:08 PM

One more reason not to buy on ebay .

The good old days are over.

katana · 24th November 2006, 03:39 PM

MADNESS

This will destroy all faith......the only WINNERS will be eBay.....as bidding could , more easily, be artifically increased by SHILL BIDDING.........the winning amounts will probably be higher...meaning more money to eBay.

SO MUCH FOR eBAYS CONCERN FOR BUYER'S .....seems IT IS MORE GEARED UP FOR SELLERS TO INCREASE THEIR PROFIT....AND THEREFORE EBAYS TOO.

Ian · 24th November 2006, 03:50 PM

As I read this announcement, the new policy is for eBay on line auctions only. Is that correct? I guess it depends on what "auction style" means.

Ian.

spiral · 24th November 2006, 04:04 PM

Ive Been looking into it all afternoon Ian.

Its for all ebays sales in UK & Australia. not just live auctions.

Evrything.

The momment the bids reach £100 it gets a cloak of darkness thrown over it.

Its starting this week apparently.

As a move to wipe out second chance offers fraud.

Madness! If it puts bidders off it might evebn backfire on ebay?

But at time bieng there saying they will introduce more "improvments" in this line early next year.

Theres uproar in thier community pages, 100s of people complaining.

But ebay arnt listening of course. Just offering platitudes.

Spiral

Bill M · 24th November 2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

MADNESS

This will destroy all faith......the only WINNERS will be eBay.....as bidding could , more easily, be artificially increased by SHILL BIDDING.........the winning amounts will probably be higher...meaning more money to eBay.

SO MUCH FOR eBAYS CONCERN FOR BUYER'S .....seems IT IS MORE GEARED UP FOR SELLERS TO INCREASE THEIR PROFIT....AND THEREFORE EBAYS TOO.

Yeah, what Katana said about ePrey.

Andrew · 24th November 2006, 04:09 PM

I'm a long-time defender of eBay. It has had its faults, but the educated consumer could do very well there.

This, however, is a really bad decision by eBay management. "Private" auctions have long been a well-deserved red flag.

spiral · 24th November 2006, 04:10 PM

Just looked on ebay, a sword ending in 2 hours over £100 is already bid on by

Bidder1,
Bidder2,
Bidder3

& you guessed it bidder 4 is in the lead

Thyve already done it!

Ill post it as an example as soon as its over.

Spiral

Michael Blalock · 24th November 2006, 04:26 PM

I can only imagine that eBay is doing this because they think they are loosing income from sellers contacting buyers directly with similar items to circumvent the fees. I'm sure this happens a lot, I have received such offers, but it could backfire.

spiral · 24th November 2006, 04:32 PM

Car auction just finnished.

Heres the Bidders page.

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI...m=320052200654

But its across the board anything over £100 in UK the & bidders ID has vanished.

Spiral

Rick · 24th November 2006, 04:47 PM

So when will they get around to instituting a 'Buyer's Premium' ?

katana · 24th November 2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Car auction just finnished.
Heres the Bidders page.

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI...m=320052200654

Spiral

If you click on bidding details VIEW .. you can find info about them....its generalised...but its something

spiral · 24th November 2006, 08:20 PM

Yes I can see how it works.

What can you tell from the fact that the bidders got between 50 & 500 ebay feedback, various percentages etc? Thats of any help? Its no good for me.

It hides shill bidders. {unless they are particulary stupid ones.}

Thats the problem, I think. Goods will cost more.

Also I cant track what my regular competitors who dont snipe, are bidding on anymore!

Spiral

Lee · 25th June 2007, 10:02 PM

I do not know how long they have been doing this on US auctions, as I am not a very regular ebay bidder, but they are doing it now.

I must sadly opine that Ebay, despite having gotten so many things right at the start, is now 'losing its way.'

Unless one believes he or she can trust the integrity of a particular seller, I believe this hiding of the names in the bidder history pretty much wipes out the 'transparency' of this marketplace.

Personally, this policy will definitely cause me to hesitate to go very far beyond an 'obvious bargain bid level' on an ebay auction.

Ferguson · 26th June 2007, 02:27 AM

Some time back I went to sniping only. Unscrupulous collectors could search by my username for what I was bidding on without doing the legwork themselves, and snipe me at the last moment. Now my only bid is in the last few seconds. Ebay isn't perfect, but it's still the best game in town.

Steve

Bill M · 26th June 2007, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Some time back I went to sniping only. Unscrupulous collectors could search by my username for what I was bidding on without doing the legwork themselves, and snipe me at the last moment. Now my only bid is in the last few seconds. Ebay isn't perfect, but it's still the best game in town.

Steve

Exactly the same reason I use a sniper!

Lee · 26th June 2007, 03:19 AM

I remember Ewart Oakeshott of European medieval sword fame telling me that as his reputation grew, he had to use a barker and could give no item any more attention than others at auction previews...

VANDOO · 26th June 2007, 04:55 AM

I ALSO DISAPROVE OF THIS HIDDEN BIDDER POLICY AS IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR A CROOKED SELLER TO SHILL BID ON HIS OWN ITEMS. PERHAPS EBAY DID IT BECAUSE SOME SELLERS KEPT GETTING NEW EBAY NAMES TO PLACE SHILL BIDS AND IT WAS TAKEING UP EBAYS SPACE FOR BUYERS. IT ALSO MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO RECOGNIZE A FRIEND AND POSSIBLY BOW OUT WITHOUT RUNNING UP THE PRICE ON HIM OR TO SEND HIM A CONGRADULATION IF HE WINS.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS STILL POSSIBLE TO SEARCH FOR ALL ITEMS A BUYER IS BIDDING ON ,THAT WAS A PROBLEM IN THE EARLY DAYS OF EBAY FOR ME UNTILL I CAUGHT ON TO WHY SOME PEOPLE WERE FINDING EVERYTHING THAT I HAD JUST FOUND BY HOURS OF SEARCHING AND LOTS OF LUCK AND TAKEING IT ALL AT THE LAST MINUTE . THIS CAUSED PEOPLE TO START WAITING UNTILL THE LAST MINUTE TO BID, FREQUENTLY CHANGEING THEIR EBAY NAME OR GETTING SNIPER SOFTWARE. IT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE NEWER PROGRAM FOR WATCHING ITEMS WITHOUT BIDDING, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN STILL SEE ALL THE BIDS A PERSON HAS MADE OR WHAT HE IS WATCHING NOW, AT LEAST I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

RECENTLY I HAD PLACED THE FIRST BID ON CHARLES NAGA SWORD AND COULD SEE WHO WAS BIDDING AND THEN WHEN I LOOKED AFTER THE AUCTION HAD ENDED ALL THE BIDDERS WERE THEN SECRET

THAT WAS A NEW ONE ON ME.
IT WENT FOR MORE THAN I EXPECTED BUT THEN MY SENSE OF WHAT SOMETHING IS WORTH TODAY AND THE AMOUNT I CAN AFFORD HAS PRETTY MUCH REMOVED ME FROM TODAYS LEVEL OF COMPETICIAN, I USUALLY ONLY GET WHAT NO ONE ELSE WANTS . SO I HAVE MOSTLY WANDERED OFF TO OTHER THINGS AND DON'T SPEND MUCH TIME SEARCHING FOR ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS THESE DAYS.

I WONDER IF THE SELLER CAN STILL SEE WHO THE BIDDERS ARE SO HE CAN CANCEL A BID BY SOMEONE HE HAS HAD PROBLEMS WITH?

spiral · 26th June 2007, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

Some time back I went to sniping only. Unscrupulous collectors could search by my username for what I was bidding on without doing the legwork themselves, and snipe me at the last moment. Now my only bid is in the last few seconds. Ebay isn't perfect, but it's still the best game in town.

Steve

I must have been unscroupulous then! Never tracked what you were bidding on though Steve. Just the people who used to outbid me on occasion & the one or two dealers who hadnt at that time bothered to research the system.

When I realised people folowed my bidding in earlier days, I bid on several junk kukris, They went for loads of money to familar names, who then were upset when they realised they were junk & had been ripped off, one even accused me of shill bidding!

Spiral the unscrupulous.

Bill M · 26th June 2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

When I realised people followed my bidding in earlier days, I bid on several junk kukris, They went for loads of money to familiar names, who then were upset when they realised they were junk & had been ripped off, one even accused me of shill bidding!

Spiral the unscrupulous.

I used to go to live antique auctions and buy furniture and whatever. I first went to antique galleries and memorized dealers' faces. Not being sure what an item was really worth I would bid slightly over the dealers because I knew that they were buying to resell, so I would get a good price if I bid a few dollars over them.

One night in the middle of the furniture auction they brought out about 20 French muzzle loaders. I had little interest in them at the time but had taken a look before the auction and some of them looked really good.

I am also aware that there are waves of bidding in live auctions. An item will come up and everyone goes wild bidding. Often the next item, though a good piece will not receive the bidding it is due.

Up come two dueling pistols. I was near the back of the room, but I noticed they were having a hard time getting a hundred dollar bid. Previous pistols had sold in the thousand dollar range. I perked up and bid a hundred dollars for the pair.

I dealer raised my bid a few dollars. I bid again. He raised. I bid. Finally I got them for only six hundred dollars! Hot damn!

Now I had never even held these particular pistols, but the others were really good. The auction house wrapped everything and I paid and took my spoils home.

Opening everything on my dining room table I unwrapped the pistols. My heart sank. They were so bad. Something that Pier 1 would have shunned.

Well, the nest day I took them back to the auction house. The auctioneer pointed at the "all sales final" sign. I told him that the other pistols were quality antiques, but he did not distinguish these as being modern repros. He point at the other sign that said, "Examine carefully before you bid."

The bottom line was that he did take them back. I was a regular customer.

But the next time I saw the dealer! He had the biggest grin!

So I got caught! I learned a few good lessons about auctions! I held no hard feelings about the dealer. I got exactly what I deserved.

spiral · 26th June 2007, 11:58 PM

Great story Bill!

Spiral

Ferguson · 27th June 2007, 02:39 AM

Spiral, it certainly wasn't you. We don't always agree

, but you are a man of honor.

spiral · 27th June 2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

you are a man of honor.

Thankyou.

Spiral

Rick · 27th June 2007, 05:19 PM

What's this lurking just over the horizon ?

Real competition ?

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...ersusEbay.aspx

Cogito · 20th July 2007, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

When I realised people folowed my bidding in earlier days, I bid on several junk kukris, They went for loads of money to familar names, who then were upset when they realised they were junk & had been ripped off, one even accused me of shill bidding!

Spiral the unscrupulous.

That's funny. But what would you have done if no one raised one of your bids and you became the winning bidder?

24th November 2006, 01:57 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	New private bidder rules for sales on ebay. There New private bidder rules for sales on ebay. Not sure if its ebay UK only or worldwide. Any & ALL sales over £100 will have bidders identitys hidden. No choice. There sales junk reckon its in the customers intrests... yeah right! Up go the prices! Here there website info... Spiral. http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policie...memberids.html Safeguarding Member IDs: FAQs Safeguarding Member IDs is a new approach to auction-style listings that offers more privacy for our members through changing how bidding information is displayed. Below you will find answers to the most frequently asked questions regarding this change. What is Safeguarding Member IDs all about? The Safeguarding Member IDs project is a new approach to auction-style listings that offers more privacy for our members through changing how bidding information is displayed. We believe that this change will help to balance the need for openness and transparency in the marketplace with the need to protect our Community of members from the threats that have appeared as the Internet has flourished. We also believe the Safeguarding Member IDs project provides the Community with enough information about the bidders involved in an auction-style listing for them to feel confident in placing a bid -- without revealing actual User IDs. We're implementing this new system on listings where the high bid is £100 or greater, which is where we believe it can have the greatest positive impact. The bid information for listings where the bid is lower than £100 will display as it does today. However, we will continue to monitor the situation, and this threshold may change in future. Here's What Will Change: On the bid history page for each listing we’ll replace User IDs with aliases (such as Bidder 1, Bidder 2 and Bidder 3) in the order that bidders place their first bid. For each bidder involved in a listing, we’ll display the number of bids that they've placed in unique categories, a range that their feedback score falls within (eg: 10-49), their percentage of positive feedback, their length of time as an eBay member, and the number of bids they’ve placed on the item. At the end of a listing, the winning bidder’s User ID will be displayed on the item page. Please note: Sellers will still be able to access bidder information on their listings through the bid history page and the My eBay selling table. In My eBay, members will no longer have access to the high-bidder column from bid and watch tables. On the item page, you’ll only be able to see the high-bidder ID if you are the signed-in seller of the item or the signed-in high bidder. Through the Advanced Search by Bidder link, we’ll only show items that the bidder has won within the last 30 days.

24th November 2006, 03:08 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Just In Time For Christmas Shopping One more reason not to buy on ebay . The good old days are over.

24th November 2006, 03:50 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Auctions Only ? As I read this announcement, the new policy is for eBay on line auctions only. Is that correct? I guess it depends on what "auction style" means. Ian.

27th June 2007, 05:19 PM	#26
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	But Wait !! What's this lurking just over the horizon ? Real competition ? http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...ersusEbay.aspx

24th November 2006, 02:15 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 887	I think this can only reduce confidence in the ebay marketplace.

24th November 2006, 03:00 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Well it appears its UK and Australian ebay sites at time bieng and only Motors on eBay.com {US} But since 90% of what I buy is UK based that doesnt help me. I guess Americans will just stop buying from UK because to them it will all look like private auctions? Crazy! I think the "laptop & mobile selling branch of ebayNigeria or ebaychina" though this one up. Spiral

24th November 2006, 03:39 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	MADNESS This will destroy all faith......the only WINNERS will be eBay.....as bidding could , more easily, be artifically increased by SHILL BIDDING.........the winning amounts will probably be higher...meaning more money to eBay. SO MUCH FOR eBAYS CONCERN FOR BUYER'S .....seems IT IS MORE GEARED UP FOR SELLERS TO INCREASE THEIR PROFIT....AND THEREFORE EBAYS TOO.

24th November 2006, 04:04 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ive Been looking into it all afternoon Ian. Its for all ebays sales in UK & Australia. not just live auctions. Evrything. The momment the bids reach £100 it gets a cloak of darkness thrown over it. Its starting this week apparently. As a move to wipe out second chance offers fraud. Madness! If it puts bidders off it might evebn backfire on ebay? But at time bieng there saying they will introduce more "improvments" in this line early next year. Theres uproar in thier community pages, 100s of people complaining. But ebay arnt listening of course. Just offering platitudes. Spiral

24th November 2006, 04:09 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm a long-time defender of eBay. It has had its faults, but the educated consumer could do very well there. This, however, is a really bad decision by eBay management. "Private" auctions have long been a well-deserved red flag.

24th November 2006, 04:10 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Just looked on ebay, a sword ending in 2 hours over £100 is already bid on by Bidder1, Bidder2, Bidder3 & you guessed it bidder 4 is in the lead Thyve already done it! Ill post it as an example as soon as its over. Spiral

24th November 2006, 04:26 PM	#11
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	I can only imagine that eBay is doing this because they think they are loosing income from sellers contacting buyers directly with similar items to circumvent the fees. I'm sure this happens a lot, I have received such offers, but it could backfire.

24th November 2006, 04:32 PM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Car auction just finnished. Heres the Bidders page. http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI...m=320052200654 But its across the board anything over £100 in UK the & bidders ID has vanished. Spiral

24th November 2006, 04:47 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	So when will they get around to instituting a 'Buyer's Premium' ?

24th November 2006, 08:20 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Yes I can see how it works. What can you tell from the fact that the bidders got between 50 & 500 ebay feedback, various percentages etc? Thats of any help? Its no good for me. It hides shill bidders. {unless they are particulary stupid ones.} Thats the problem, I think. Goods will cost more. Also I cant track what my regular competitors who dont snipe, are bidding on anymore! Spiral

25th June 2007, 10:02 PM	#16
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 887	I do not know how long they have been doing this on US auctions, as I am not a very regular ebay bidder, but they are doing it now. I must sadly opine that Ebay, despite having gotten so many things right at the start, is now 'losing its way.' Unless one believes he or she can trust the integrity of a particular seller, I believe this hiding of the names in the bidder history pretty much wipes out the 'transparency' of this marketplace. Personally, this policy will definitely cause me to hesitate to go very far beyond an 'obvious bargain bid level' on an ebay auction.

26th June 2007, 02:27 AM	#17
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Some time back I went to sniping only. Unscrupulous collectors could search by my username for what I was bidding on without doing the legwork themselves, and snipe me at the last moment. Now my only bid is in the last few seconds. Ebay isn't perfect, but it's still the best game in town. Steve

26th June 2007, 03:19 AM	#19
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 887	I remember Ewart Oakeshott of European medieval sword fame telling me that as his reputation grew, he had to use a barker and could give no item any more attention than others at auction previews...

26th June 2007, 04:55 AM	#20
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I ALSO DISAPROVE OF THIS HIDDEN BIDDER POLICY AS IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR A CROOKED SELLER TO SHILL BID ON HIS OWN ITEMS. PERHAPS EBAY DID IT BECAUSE SOME SELLERS KEPT GETTING NEW EBAY NAMES TO PLACE SHILL BIDS AND IT WAS TAKEING UP EBAYS SPACE FOR BUYERS. IT ALSO MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO RECOGNIZE A FRIEND AND POSSIBLY BOW OUT WITHOUT RUNNING UP THE PRICE ON HIM OR TO SEND HIM A CONGRADULATION IF HE WINS. I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS STILL POSSIBLE TO SEARCH FOR ALL ITEMS A BUYER IS BIDDING ON ,THAT WAS A PROBLEM IN THE EARLY DAYS OF EBAY FOR ME UNTILL I CAUGHT ON TO WHY SOME PEOPLE WERE FINDING EVERYTHING THAT I HAD JUST FOUND BY HOURS OF SEARCHING AND LOTS OF LUCK AND TAKEING IT ALL AT THE LAST MINUTE . THIS CAUSED PEOPLE TO START WAITING UNTILL THE LAST MINUTE TO BID, FREQUENTLY CHANGEING THEIR EBAY NAME OR GETTING SNIPER SOFTWARE. IT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THE NEWER PROGRAM FOR WATCHING ITEMS WITHOUT BIDDING, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN STILL SEE ALL THE BIDS A PERSON HAS MADE OR WHAT HE IS WATCHING NOW, AT LEAST I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT. RECENTLY I HAD PLACED THE FIRST BID ON CHARLES NAGA SWORD AND COULD SEE WHO WAS BIDDING AND THEN WHEN I LOOKED AFTER THE AUCTION HAD ENDED ALL THE BIDDERS WERE THEN SECRET THAT WAS A NEW ONE ON ME. IT WENT FOR MORE THAN I EXPECTED BUT THEN MY SENSE OF WHAT SOMETHING IS WORTH TODAY AND THE AMOUNT I CAN AFFORD HAS PRETTY MUCH REMOVED ME FROM TODAYS LEVEL OF COMPETICIAN, I USUALLY ONLY GET WHAT NO ONE ELSE WANTS . SO I HAVE MOSTLY WANDERED OFF TO OTHER THINGS AND DON'T SPEND MUCH TIME SEARCHING FOR ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS THESE DAYS. I WONDER IF THE SELLER CAN STILL SEE WHO THE BIDDERS ARE SO HE CAN CANCEL A BID BY SOMEONE HE HAS HAD PROBLEMS WITH?

26th June 2007, 11:58 PM	#23
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great story Bill! Spiral

27th June 2007, 02:39 AM	#24
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Spiral, it certainly wasn't you. We don't always agree , but you are a man of honor.