Khanjar Indian brass hilted, rams head knife

Kmaddock · 3rd January 2019, 09:31 PM

Hi all
I just got the attached knife
It has lovely heft to it and is v well balanced in the hand and would be very effective as a weapon.
Blade held onto the handle with 2 metal rivets
Good edge to the blade in spite of the obvious grime
Blade is 9 inches long and inch and half at hilt.

It is uncleaned at present and I am quiet reluctant to clean it at all except to clean the rust off the blade, I prefers to keep my collection as dirty (platina covered) as possible except without rust.

However is there a chance that the blade might be wootz
I do not know if this is a high end ceremonial knife or just decorative
If it was wootz I would love to clean the blade properly and bring it back to its previous beauty

Jim mc dougall has previously passed some comment on a similar hilted knife with an explanation of the rams head iconography

The rams head is termed 'meshamuki' (Pant, 1980, New Delhi, p.113, fig. 294, mesha=sheep, but applies to ram as well). Most of these 'rams head' hilts on daggers or swords seem associated with Rajputs in N. India in the periods noted. According to the Vedas, many animals and creatures are associated as vehicles for various divinities in the Hindu pantheon of deities, and the ram is one for that of the four Agnivashi clans' .

So my questions
Any idea on age, is this a ceremonial knife pattern and what chance there is wootz under the crud on the blade. If anyone has any other comments or observations ask away.

V cloudy in Ireland so apologies about my pictures

Regards
Ken

mariusgmioc · 3rd January 2019, 10:30 PM

There is no way to tell whether it is wootz or not unless you clean it and polish it.
I have seen this type of knives with both wootz blades and ordinary steel.

Fingers crossed!

Kmaddock · 4th January 2019, 09:46 AM

Thanks for reply
I will have a think about it as I think the knife will loose a lot of its character if it is cleaned and there is no Wootz. maybe i will do a small window to see what lies underneath.

I am taking it as an 19th century knife would you agree?
Regards
Ken

Sajen · 4th January 2019, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

I will have a think about it as I think the knife will loose a lot of its character if it is cleaned and there is no Wootz.

Sorry, I disagree at this point complete! I wouldn't like to have a rusty blade like this in my collection! And you need to know that every iron corrosion is active, read a little bit about corrosion and you will understand.

Regards,
Detlef

Kmaddock · 4th January 2019, 05:23 PM

It is uncleaned at present and I am quiet reluctant to clean it at all except to clean the rust off the blade, I prefers to keep my collection as dirty (platina covered) as possible except without rust.

Hi Detlef,
as per above I will clean rust but not the Platina,
I will use 0000 wire wool and lubricant (diesel) I just don't like overly shiny items in my collection.

I have had this discussion with many collectors and some overly clean in my opinion. I see some items on here that to me have been way over cleaned but that is just my personal opinion and i don't want to cause any offence or argument. This is the friendliest most informative forum group i have ever been on and i want to keep the peace.
I would never clean the brass on the handle and i will probably just polish a window to see if there is a wootz blade as if so i would like to show the whole beauty of the knife off
Regards

ken

mariusgmioc · 4th January 2019, 10:49 PM

Regarding cleaning the knife, I fully agree with Detlef.

What you think is patina, is actually rust. While black rust is less active (but still active) and may contribute to the character of a blade, brown rust does nothing but damage the blade. And it is precisely brown rust what you have on your blade.

Moreover, it is as you said a 19 century blade (best case scenario) but it can also be from early 20 cent, so not so old. While is I consider acceptable to have some black rust on a 16-18 century blade, I find it less acceptable on such a recent blade.

But this is my personal oppinion. It is your blade abd your call.

Sajen · 5th January 2019, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

It is uncleaned at present and I am quiet reluctant to clean it at all except to clean the rust off the blade, I prefers to keep my collection as dirty (platina covered) as possible except without rust.

Hi Detlef,
as per above I will clean rust but not the Platina,
I will use 0000 wire wool and lubricant (diesel) I just don't like overly shiny items in my collection.

I have had this discussion with many collectors and some overly clean in my opinion. I see some items on here that to me have been way over cleaned but that is just my personal opinion and i don't want to cause any offence or argument. This is the friendliest most informative forum group i have ever been on and i want to keep the peace.
I would never clean the brass on the handle and i will probably just polish a window to see if there is a wootz blade as if so i would like to show the whole beauty of the knife off
Regards

ken

Hi Ken,

like you I want to keep peace for sure and at last it's your dagger and can handle it like you want. Maybe I will start once a thread about restoration, a discussion where everybody can add his view about how far restoration should go.

Regards,
Detlef

3rd January 2019, 09:31 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 532	Khanjar Indian brass hilted, rams head knife Hi all I just got the attached knife It has lovely heft to it and is v well balanced in the hand and would be very effective as a weapon. Blade held onto the handle with 2 metal rivets Good edge to the blade in spite of the obvious grime Blade is 9 inches long and inch and half at hilt. It is uncleaned at present and I am quiet reluctant to clean it at all except to clean the rust off the blade, I prefers to keep my collection as dirty (platina covered) as possible except without rust. However is there a chance that the blade might be wootz I do not know if this is a high end ceremonial knife or just decorative If it was wootz I would love to clean the blade properly and bring it back to its previous beauty Jim mc dougall has previously passed some comment on a similar hilted knife with an explanation of the rams head iconography The rams head is termed 'meshamuki' (Pant, 1980, New Delhi, p.113, fig. 294, mesha=sheep, but applies to ram as well). Most of these 'rams head' hilts on daggers or swords seem associated with Rajputs in N. India in the periods noted. According to the Vedas, many animals and creatures are associated as vehicles for various divinities in the Hindu pantheon of deities, and the ram is one for that of the four Agnivashi clans' . So my questions Any idea on age, is this a ceremonial knife pattern and what chance there is wootz under the crud on the blade. If anyone has any other comments or observations ask away. V cloudy in Ireland so apologies about my pictures Regards Ken Attached Images

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3rd January 2019, 10:30 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,869	There is no way to tell whether it is wootz or not unless you clean it and polish it. I have seen this type of knives with both wootz blades and ordinary steel. Fingers crossed!

4th January 2019, 09:46 AM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 532	Thanks for reply I will have a think about it as I think the knife will loose a lot of its character if it is cleaned and there is no Wootz. maybe i will do a small window to see what lies underneath. I am taking it as an 19th century knife would you agree? Regards Ken

4th January 2019, 05:23 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 532	It is uncleaned at present and I am quiet reluctant to clean it at all except to clean the rust off the blade, I prefers to keep my collection as dirty (platina covered) as possible except without rust. Hi Detlef, as per above I will clean rust but not the Platina, I will use 0000 wire wool and lubricant (diesel) I just don't like overly shiny items in my collection. I have had this discussion with many collectors and some overly clean in my opinion. I see some items on here that to me have been way over cleaned but that is just my personal opinion and i don't want to cause any offence or argument. This is the friendliest most informative forum group i have ever been on and i want to keep the peace. I would never clean the brass on the handle and i will probably just polish a window to see if there is a wootz blade as if so i would like to show the whole beauty of the knife off Regards ken

4th January 2019, 10:49 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,869	Regarding cleaning the knife, I fully agree with Detlef. What you think is patina, is actually rust. While black rust is less active (but still active) and may contribute to the character of a blade, brown rust does nothing but damage the blade. And it is precisely brown rust what you have on your blade. Moreover, it is as you said a 19 century blade (best case scenario) but it can also be from early 20 cent, so not so old. While is I consider acceptable to have some black rust on a 16-18 century blade, I find it less acceptable on such a recent blade. But this is my personal oppinion. It is your blade abd your call.