Afghan maybe

Ian · 9th March 2006, 08:53 PM

Interesting sword just finished on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6610236905

ariel · 9th March 2006, 09:11 PM

I fully agree: Afghan military. There were several of those on e-bay over the past ~3 years.

Rick · 9th March 2006, 09:17 PM

I tried to clue the Seller in as to what he had .
I guess he liked 'shamshir' better .
It has seen better days .

Valjhun · 9th March 2006, 09:25 PM

That seller is not stupid and he is a member of this forum, He probably knew what he's got, but shamshir asttires more, I guess

Nice toy, I'd like to have it, but I was late on that

Rick · 9th March 2006, 10:12 PM

These swords do not appear on the market very often .
I suspect that this one is a fairly early example but not 18th C.

Nagawarrior · 9th March 2006, 11:31 PM

I'll chime in with my 2 cents on this one. I have two examples of this particular sword. One, a standard issue, the other, a more elaborate example, purhaps for a soldier of some standing or body guard to an officer. Note the watered blade.
I believe this style to be a late 19th century, c. 1880 model afgan sword. I have a photo from a book as well. It is dated August of 1879. It pictures General Daoud Shah, the Afgan Cammander-in-Chief and his body guard who has one of these swords at his side.

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 12:25 AM

The photo of General Daoud Shah is from "Northwest Frontier: People and Events 1839-1947" by Arthur Swinson (N.Y.1967).
I found this photo while researching one of these swords with a southern Calif. colleague in 1998. The example we were researching carried the date 1314 A.H. (1896 AD) and an arsenal mark reflecting the facade of the masjid at Mazir-i-Sharif. These were claimed to have been carried by bodyguards of Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1881-1901).
I have seen identifications of these swords from prior to that time in catalogs etc. ranging from 'Greek' to 'Spanish' with the arsenal mark claimed to be the 'Pillars of Hercules'!

It seems that later editions of these swords carry composite components including often brass guards and knucklebows and there are examples of these hilts on Khyber Knives...many of these are believed to have been used in the 3rd Afghan War in 1919.

Best regards,
Jim

Rick · 10th March 2006, 12:48 AM

Nagawarrior , that private purchase blade in your second example of this sword is quite impressive .

My example is seen below ; these standard blades have a magnificent 'ring' to them when tapped :

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 02:14 AM

Rick, Thanks for posting your sword, an outstanding example as well!!!
and thoughts of 'The Great Game'!!! Lots of intriguing history in these swords, even though they are relatively recent.
I agree that the steel in these heavily fullered blades is excellently forged and they do have a great 'ring' when unsheathed and tapped.

All the best,
Jim

Nagawarrior · 10th March 2006, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The photo of General Daoud Shah is from "Northwest Frontier: People and Events 1839-1947" by Arthur Swinson (N.Y.1967).
I found this photo while researching one of these swords with a southern Calif. colleague in 1998. The example we were researching carried the date 1314 A.H. (1896 AD) and an arsenal mark reflecting the facade of the masjid at Mazir-i-Sharif. These were claimed to have been carried by bodyguards of Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1881-1901).
I have seen identifications of these swords from prior to that time in catalogs etc. ranging from 'Greek' to 'Spanish' with the arsenal mark claimed to be the 'Pillars of Hercules'! :

Thank you for the additional informatio Jim. Very interesting. I came by the picture the same time I picked up the two swords. I believe mine has the arsenal mark you are talking about. See picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems that later editions of these swords carry composite components including often brass guards and knucklebows and there are examples of these hilts on Khyber Knives...many of these are believed to have been used in the 3rd Afghan War in 1919. :

Here is a picture of my Khyber knife with the same hilt. Thanks again Jim. I really appreciate your insight.
Best,
Stephen*

Nagawarrior · 10th March 2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Nagawarrior , that private purchase blade in your second example of this sword is quite impressive .

My example is seen below ; these standard blades have a magnificent 'ring' to them when tapped :

Thanks Rick. Your sword is in excellent condition. Very nice!
Best,
Stephen*

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 04:39 AM

Hi Stephen,
Yes, thats exactly the mark!
Wow! very nice Khyber!!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. I think Rick will agree, you should now get a copy of "The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk...this will give you incredible insight and fascinating history of the volatile regions from which these swords came.

Rick · 10th March 2006, 03:11 PM

Jim and Stephen thank you both for your fine input gentlemen .

I find the standard model to be a fairly cumbersome weapon ; but perhaps that is just me .

Stephen , might I ask if the quillon on either of your examples carries this mark ; and would anyone here have any insight into its meaning ?

I would also suggest Ben Macintyre's fine book
*THE MAN WHO WOULD BE KING ; The First American In Afghanistan*
for another view of the area and place in time .

Nagawarrior · 10th March 2006, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Jim and Stephen thank you both for your fine input gentlemen .

I find the standard model to be a fairly cumbersome weapon ; but perhaps that is just me .

Stephen , might I ask if the quillon on either of your examples carries this mark ; and would anyone here have any insight into its meaning ?

I would also suggest Ben Macintyre's fine book
*THE MAN WHO WOULD BE KING ; The First American In Afghanistan*
for another view of the area and place in time .

Yes Rick! Mine does have the same mark on the quillon. I would have never noticed it, as it was under a layer of patina I hadn't cleaned. Very interesting, but I haven't a clue as to what it means. Looks a little like a date purhaps. I hope someone out there will know.
Thank you for the book suggestions. I will look for them. Yes, the standard model is a little unwieldy and short, certainly compared with the private purchase one. Purhaps meant for hacking in close quarters. I surmise that at this period in history the fire arm had become the important weapon and the sword secondary.

Here is a photo of the mark on my sword, a little off center compared with yours Rick.
Best,
Stephen*

9th March 2006, 08:53 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,028	Afghan maybe Interesting sword just finished on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6610236905

9th March 2006, 09:25 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	That seller is not stupid and he is a member of this forum, He probably knew what he's got, but shamshir asttires more, I guess Nice toy, I'd like to have it, but I was late on that Last edited by Valjhun; 9th March 2006 at 09:41 PM.

10th March 2006, 12:48 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Nagawarrior , that private purchase blade in your second example of this sword is quite impressive . My example is seen below ; these standard blades have a magnificent 'ring' to them when tapped : Attached Images

10th March 2006, 03:11 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Jim and Stephen thank you both for your fine input gentlemen . I find the standard model to be a fairly cumbersome weapon ; but perhaps that is just me . Stephen , might I ask if the quillon on either of your examples carries this mark ; and would anyone here have any insight into its meaning ? I would also suggest Ben Macintyre's fine book THE MAN WHO WOULD BE KING ; The First American In Afghanistan for another view of the area and place in time . Attached Images

9th March 2006, 09:11 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree: Afghan military. There were several of those on e-bay over the past ~3 years.

9th March 2006, 09:17 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I tried to clue the Seller in as to what he had . I guess he liked 'shamshir' better . It has seen better days .

9th March 2006, 10:12 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	These swords do not appear on the market very often . I suspect that this one is a fairly early example but not 18th C.

9th March 2006, 11:31 PM	#6
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	I'll chime in with my 2 cents on this one. I have two examples of this particular sword. One, a standard issue, the other, a more elaborate example, purhaps for a soldier of some standing or body guard to an officer. Note the watered blade. I believe this style to be a late 19th century, c. 1880 model afgan sword. I have a photo from a book as well. It is dated August of 1879. It pictures General Daoud Shah, the Afgan Cammander-in-Chief and his body guard who has one of these swords at his side.

10th March 2006, 12:25 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	The photo of General Daoud Shah is from "Northwest Frontier: People and Events 1839-1947" by Arthur Swinson (N.Y.1967). I found this photo while researching one of these swords with a southern Calif. colleague in 1998. The example we were researching carried the date 1314 A.H. (1896 AD) and an arsenal mark reflecting the facade of the masjid at Mazir-i-Sharif. These were claimed to have been carried by bodyguards of Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1881-1901). I have seen identifications of these swords from prior to that time in catalogs etc. ranging from 'Greek' to 'Spanish' with the arsenal mark claimed to be the 'Pillars of Hercules'! It seems that later editions of these swords carry composite components including often brass guards and knucklebows and there are examples of these hilts on Khyber Knives...many of these are believed to have been used in the 3rd Afghan War in 1919. Best regards, Jim

10th March 2006, 02:14 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Rick, Thanks for posting your sword, an outstanding example as well!!! and thoughts of 'The Great Game'!!! Lots of intriguing history in these swords, even though they are relatively recent. I agree that the steel in these heavily fullered blades is excellently forged and they do have a great 'ring' when unsheathed and tapped. All the best, Jim

10th March 2006, 04:39 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Stephen, Yes, thats exactly the mark! Wow! very nice Khyber!! All the best, Jim P.S. I think Rick will agree, you should now get a copy of "The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk...this will give you incredible insight and fascinating history of the volatile regions from which these swords came.