UNKNOWN SWORD FOR ID.

VANDOO · 3rd January 2013, 10:45 PM

NOT MY USUAL TYPE ITEM BUT I PICKED THIS UP RECENTLY POSSIBLY FROM BRAZIL AS THATS WHERE THE FAMILY WAS FROM. A SABER 3 FOOT 3 INCH IN SCABBARD, BLADE 29.5 INCH LONG. STAMP ON BLADE SEEMS TO BE ( ION. NG. 62. OSNE, ACROSS THE TOP. BOTTOM H-G62 ) FALSE EDGE ALONG TOP 1/4 OF BLADE. THANKS FOR ANY HELP.

A Senefelder · 4th January 2013, 12:47 PM

Something about this remindes me of the Japanese policemans swords of WWII. Perhaps its the flower decoration ( although they are obviously not the five petal cherry blossom of the Japanese swords ).

fernando · 4th January 2013, 01:04 PM

The stamp lettering doesn't suggest bein Brazilian ... from the (portuguese) language point of view

.
Will you end up posting a more accurate picture of it?

... and it wouldn't be German made, either :

http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/Makers.php

VANDOO · 5th January 2013, 05:59 AM

I LOOKED THRU THE MARKS IN THE LINK BUT FOUND NO MATCH. MY CAMERA DOSEN'T SEEM ABLE TO GET A GOOD PICTURE THOUGH I TRYED SEVERAL TIMES. HERE IS THE BEST ONE OF THE LOT BUT STILL VERY POOR. THE CASTING DOSEN'T SEEM TO BE VERY WELL DONE, THE BLADE IS SHARP AND MADE FOR USE BUT DOSEN'T SHOW WEAR AS IT WAS MADE AND ISSUED DURING A TIME WHEN SWORDS WERE ONLY FOR DRESS OR EMERGENCY.

M ELEY · 5th January 2013, 08:19 AM

I have a sneaky suspicion that this might be one of those Chinese reproductions that turn up now and again on ePray. It has the general look of a Japanese army officer's or police sword, with cherry blossom patterns, etc, but the blade looks bogus to me. Artificially aged brown, with unidentifiable markings. Blade does loosley resemble Chinese blades of the early 20th, but I still call 'foul' on this one.

fernando · 5th January 2013, 01:09 PM

Well Barry,
Focusing on the sword with eyes adjusted by Mark's remarks, i guess i will follow his opinion.
Indeed the letterings don't seem to have any logic sequence.

Valjhun · 5th January 2013, 05:27 PM

It seem like a chinese repro to me too..

Evgeny_K · 6th January 2013, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

It seem like a chinese repro to me too..

not repro - just fantasy

M ELEY · 6th January 2013, 10:40 AM

Yes, fantasy, but one that many seek to make others think is an old valuable, unidentified piece.
I know the moderators don't like us posting active auctions, so I won't post the direct link. I have found our 'little stinker' on eBay. If you go to eBay and do a search for 'Old French Military Saber Cavalry Sword Signed Sharp Blade', you will see this exact sword. Interestingly, under it at the bottom is one of those Chinese maces we were discussing under another thread. The scary thing about these pieces is that some of them do resemble other types of Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc weapons and can fool even moderately experienced collectors. Not cool-

asomotif · 6th January 2013, 11:23 AM

Creepy to see such patina on the brass and steel

really creepy

Atlantia · 6th January 2013, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, fantasy, but one that many seek to make others think is an old valuable, unidentified piece.
I know the moderators don't like us posting active auctions, so I won't post the direct link. I have found our 'little stinker' on eBay. If you go to eBay and do a search for 'Old French Military Saber Cavalry Sword Signed Sharp Blade', you will see this exact sword. Interestingly, under it at the bottom is one of those Chinese maces we were discussing under another thread. The scary thing about these pieces is that some of them do resemble other types of Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc weapons and can fool even moderately experienced collectors. Not cool-

Well spotted!

In fairness, Barry's one looks far more carefully aged.
Try googling the 'name' (lol) on the blade of the other one: apwfedijgnksxz
It looks like the worst set of scrabble letters ever, 3 vowels and 11 consonants!

Barry,
What is the grip on yours made of?
The colour on the brass is really well done. Quite scary really.
Also seems likme they are taking more care with the scabbards as well. Is it lined?

asomotif · 6th January 2013, 01:59 PM

I usually avoid e-bay, but just checked what is offered from China today.
There are indeed some dangerous forgeries amongst them.
Such as a kai gunto that made me go

Hotspur · 6th January 2013, 05:10 PM

I had wondered about a similar sword some time ago, as I was triggered by some of the Bavarian flower langets. I had saved this one in my files. Unfortunately the pictures are pretty small and I didn't save an overall shot but definitely in the same vein. Spotted immediately by others (as folk hee also have) It is a reminder to always look more than twice.

A great many European looking swords are coming out of China. Some rather good looking and many (as mentioned) rather fantastical. I continue to open up some Ebay listings, as some are familiar overall patterns but then the main giveaway most times is the shipping location. That and starting prices.

Anyway, three pictures to add to this thread. I came across it a few years ago. My fascination for the flower langets is posted in a thread here with my own penchant as a dunce of the day

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...n-Flower-Power

Cheers

GC

VANDOO · 6th January 2013, 05:54 PM

EBAY IS GOOD FOR DETECTING FAKES ESPECIALLY FROM CHINA AS YOU OFTEN FIND SEVERAL EXAMPLES AT THE SAME TIME. THIS SWORD IS UNLIKE ANY OF THE MANY CHINESE FAKES I HAVE HANDLED OVER THE YEARS.
I FOUND THE SWORD AT A FRIENDS ESTATE SALE HE WAS AN INDIAN TRADER FOR MANY YEARS SPECILIZING IN ETHINOGRAPHIC TRIBAL ART FROM THE TRIBES IN BRAZIL. HE MADE TRIP 96 TO COLLECT IN BRAZIL THIS LAST YEAR BUT WAS ROBBED AND BEATEN IN HIS HOTEL AND DIED BEFORE HE COULD GET TO THE VILLAGES. A GREAT LOSS AS HE HAD A LOT OF KNOWLEGE AND HAD PLANNED TO DO A BOOK NOW ALL LOST.
I WAS THERE TO BUY SOME OF HIS TRIBAL ITEMS FROM HIS WIFE AND FOUND THIS SWORD IN AN UMBRELLA STAND. HIS WIFE IS FROM THE YANAMO TRIBE AND DIDN'T KNOW WHERE HE HAD GOT IT SO HANDELING IT I ASSUMED IT TO BE SOUTH AMERICAN PERHAPS BRAZIL. I WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT IT ON EBAY BUT IT IS A SOUND SWORD AND HAS NONE OF THE TELLTALE SIGNS OF CHINESE FAKES I COULD SEE, SO BEWARE

.
THE CURRENT LAWS IN CHINA MAKE IT A CRIME TO SELL REAL ANTIQUES 100 YEARS OLD OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY. THEY SELL FAKES TO FILL THE DEMAND SO THEY GET OUR MONEY AND WE LOSE FACE BY BEING FOOLED.

THE CHINESE ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST MAKERS OF FAKES IN HISTORY AND THE TRADITION GOES BACK HUNDREDS OF YEARS SO THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT IT. WHEN THEY PUT THE EFFORT INTO IT THEY ARE VIRTUALLY PERFECT. THIS SWORD WAS NOT UP TO THE QUALITY OF EUROPEAN WORK BUT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE CHINA, INDIA OR PAKASTANI WORK SO GIVEN ITS LOCATION AND MY LACK OF KNOWLEGE OF SOUTH AMERICAN SWORDS I ASSUMED WRONG. BUT IT WAS WORTH THE PRICE AS WE ALL HAVE LEARNED SOMETHING OF VALUE FROM IT. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

THE FITTING AT THE SCABBARD MOUTH HIDES THE FACT THAT THE SCABBARD IS NOT LINED. THE GRIP LOOKS LIKE WIRE WRAPPED LEATHER BUT ON CLOSE INSPECTION IS PLASTIC CAST TO LOOK LIKE LEATHER AND TO HOLD THE REAL COPPER WIRE WRAP. THEY EVEN HAVE A REAL PIECE OF LEATHER AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE TO MAKE THE SWORD FIT SECURE IN THE SCABBARD AND FURTHER MAKE YOU THINK LEATHER WAS USED. MY EXAMPLE SEEMS TO BE AN EARLIER VERSION OF THE ONE ON EBAY AND THE ONLY CHANGES MADE ARE THE MAKERS MARK AND THE NONSENCE LETTERS ON THE BLADE. AT LEAST I PAYED A LOT LESS THAN THE CURRENT EBAY OFFERING. TAKE A LOOK AT IT AND THEN LOOK THRU THE OTHER ITEMS THE SELLER IS OFFERING FOR A LARGE CATALOG OF WHAT CHINA IS CURRENTLY OFFERING.

M ELEY · 7th January 2013, 04:50 AM

Sorry your sword ended up being a repro/fantasy piece, Barry-

. Glad to hear you didn't pay too much for it and at least it appears to be a functional sword vs a den decorator. Glenn's pics do indeed show some of the really tricky items that scare me (that first one with the laural leaf pattern on the hilt resembles several French models very closely. If nothing more, it reminds us all to be cautious. I personally have at least one repro that I like to attack tree branches with. Immature, I know, but a good stress-reliever

M ELEY · 7th January 2013, 04:51 AM

Sorry your sword ended up being a repro/fantasy piece, Barry-

. Glad to hear you didn't pay too much for it and at least it appears to be a functional sword vs a den decorator. Glenn's pics do indeed show some of the really tricky items that scare me (that first one with the laural leaf pattern on the hilt resembles several French models very closely. If nothing more, it reminds us all to be cautious. I personally have at least one repro that I like to attack tree branches with. Immature, I know, but a good stress-reliever

3rd January 2013, 10:45 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNKNOWN SWORD FOR ID. NOT MY USUAL TYPE ITEM BUT I PICKED THIS UP RECENTLY POSSIBLY FROM BRAZIL AS THATS WHERE THE FAMILY WAS FROM. A SABER 3 FOOT 3 INCH IN SCABBARD, BLADE 29.5 INCH LONG. STAMP ON BLADE SEEMS TO BE ( ION. NG. 62. OSNE, ACROSS THE TOP. BOTTOM H-G62 ) FALSE EDGE ALONG TOP 1/4 OF BLADE. THANKS FOR ANY HELP. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 4th January 2013 at 06:12 PM.

5th January 2013, 05:59 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I LOOKED THRU THE MARKS IN THE LINK BUT FOUND NO MATCH. MY CAMERA DOSEN'T SEEM ABLE TO GET A GOOD PICTURE THOUGH I TRYED SEVERAL TIMES. HERE IS THE BEST ONE OF THE LOT BUT STILL VERY POOR. THE CASTING DOSEN'T SEEM TO BE VERY WELL DONE, THE BLADE IS SHARP AND MADE FOR USE BUT DOSEN'T SHOW WEAR AS IT WAS MADE AND ISSUED DURING A TIME WHEN SWORDS WERE ONLY FOR DRESS OR EMERGENCY. Attached Images

6th January 2013, 05:10 PM	#13
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 489	I had wondered about a similar sword some time ago, as I was triggered by some of the Bavarian flower langets. I had saved this one in my files. Unfortunately the pictures are pretty small and I didn't save an overall shot but definitely in the same vein. Spotted immediately by others (as folk hee also have) It is a reminder to always look more than twice. A great many European looking swords are coming out of China. Some rather good looking and many (as mentioned) rather fantastical. I continue to open up some Ebay listings, as some are familiar overall patterns but then the main giveaway most times is the shipping location. That and starting prices. Anyway, three pictures to add to this thread. I came across it a few years ago. My fascination for the flower langets is posted in a thread here with my own penchant as a dunce of the day http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...n-Flower-Power Cheers GC Attached Images

6th January 2013, 05:54 PM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	EBAY IS GOOD FOR DETECTING FAKES ESPECIALLY FROM CHINA AS YOU OFTEN FIND SEVERAL EXAMPLES AT THE SAME TIME. THIS SWORD IS UNLIKE ANY OF THE MANY CHINESE FAKES I HAVE HANDLED OVER THE YEARS. I FOUND THE SWORD AT A FRIENDS ESTATE SALE HE WAS AN INDIAN TRADER FOR MANY YEARS SPECILIZING IN ETHINOGRAPHIC TRIBAL ART FROM THE TRIBES IN BRAZIL. HE MADE TRIP 96 TO COLLECT IN BRAZIL THIS LAST YEAR BUT WAS ROBBED AND BEATEN IN HIS HOTEL AND DIED BEFORE HE COULD GET TO THE VILLAGES. A GREAT LOSS AS HE HAD A LOT OF KNOWLEGE AND HAD PLANNED TO DO A BOOK NOW ALL LOST. I WAS THERE TO BUY SOME OF HIS TRIBAL ITEMS FROM HIS WIFE AND FOUND THIS SWORD IN AN UMBRELLA STAND. HIS WIFE IS FROM THE YANAMO TRIBE AND DIDN'T KNOW WHERE HE HAD GOT IT SO HANDELING IT I ASSUMED IT TO BE SOUTH AMERICAN PERHAPS BRAZIL. I WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT IT ON EBAY BUT IT IS A SOUND SWORD AND HAS NONE OF THE TELLTALE SIGNS OF CHINESE FAKES I COULD SEE, SO BEWARE . THE CURRENT LAWS IN CHINA MAKE IT A CRIME TO SELL REAL ANTIQUES 100 YEARS OLD OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY. THEY SELL FAKES TO FILL THE DEMAND SO THEY GET OUR MONEY AND WE LOSE FACE BY BEING FOOLED. THE CHINESE ARE PROBABLY THE GREATEST MAKERS OF FAKES IN HISTORY AND THE TRADITION GOES BACK HUNDREDS OF YEARS SO THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT IT. WHEN THEY PUT THE EFFORT INTO IT THEY ARE VIRTUALLY PERFECT. THIS SWORD WAS NOT UP TO THE QUALITY OF EUROPEAN WORK BUT DIDN'T LOOK LIKE CHINA, INDIA OR PAKASTANI WORK SO GIVEN ITS LOCATION AND MY LACK OF KNOWLEGE OF SOUTH AMERICAN SWORDS I ASSUMED WRONG. BUT IT WAS WORTH THE PRICE AS WE ALL HAVE LEARNED SOMETHING OF VALUE FROM IT. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP THE FITTING AT THE SCABBARD MOUTH HIDES THE FACT THAT THE SCABBARD IS NOT LINED. THE GRIP LOOKS LIKE WIRE WRAPPED LEATHER BUT ON CLOSE INSPECTION IS PLASTIC CAST TO LOOK LIKE LEATHER AND TO HOLD THE REAL COPPER WIRE WRAP. THEY EVEN HAVE A REAL PIECE OF LEATHER AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE TO MAKE THE SWORD FIT SECURE IN THE SCABBARD AND FURTHER MAKE YOU THINK LEATHER WAS USED. MY EXAMPLE SEEMS TO BE AN EARLIER VERSION OF THE ONE ON EBAY AND THE ONLY CHANGES MADE ARE THE MAKERS MARK AND THE NONSENCE LETTERS ON THE BLADE. AT LEAST I PAYED A LOT LESS THAN THE CURRENT EBAY OFFERING. TAKE A LOOK AT IT AND THEN LOOK THRU THE OTHER ITEMS THE SELLER IS OFFERING FOR A LARGE CATALOG OF WHAT CHINA IS CURRENTLY OFFERING. Last edited by VANDOO; 6th January 2013 at 07:27 PM.

4th January 2013, 12:47 PM	#2
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Something about this remindes me of the Japanese policemans swords of WWII. Perhaps its the flower decoration ( although they are obviously not the five petal cherry blossom of the Japanese swords ).

4th January 2013, 01:04 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	The stamp lettering doesn't suggest bein Brazilian ... from the (portuguese) language point of view . Will you end up posting a more accurate picture of it? ... and it wouldn't be German made, either : http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/Makers.php

5th January 2013, 08:19 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,070	I have a sneaky suspicion that this might be one of those Chinese reproductions that turn up now and again on ePray. It has the general look of a Japanese army officer's or police sword, with cherry blossom patterns, etc, but the blade looks bogus to me. Artificially aged brown, with unidentifiable markings. Blade does loosley resemble Chinese blades of the early 20th, but I still call 'foul' on this one.

5th January 2013, 01:09 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Well Barry, Focusing on the sword with eyes adjusted by Mark's remarks, i guess i will follow his opinion. Indeed the letterings don't seem to have any logic sequence.

5th January 2013, 05:27 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It seem like a chinese repro to me too..

6th January 2013, 10:40 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,070	Yes, fantasy, but one that many seek to make others think is an old valuable, unidentified piece. I know the moderators don't like us posting active auctions, so I won't post the direct link. I have found our 'little stinker' on eBay. If you go to eBay and do a search for 'Old French Military Saber Cavalry Sword Signed Sharp Blade', you will see this exact sword. Interestingly, under it at the bottom is one of those Chinese maces we were discussing under another thread. The scary thing about these pieces is that some of them do resemble other types of Chinese/Japanese/Korean/etc weapons and can fool even moderately experienced collectors. Not cool-

6th January 2013, 11:23 AM	#10
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Creepy to see such patina on the brass and steel really creepy

6th January 2013, 01:59 PM	#12
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	I usually avoid e-bay, but just checked what is offered from China today. There are indeed some dangerous forgeries amongst them. Such as a kai gunto that made me go

7th January 2013, 04:50 AM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,070	Sorry your sword ended up being a repro/fantasy piece, Barry- . Glad to hear you didn't pay too much for it and at least it appears to be a functional sword vs a den decorator. Glenn's pics do indeed show some of the really tricky items that scare me (that first one with the laural leaf pattern on the hilt resembles several French models very closely. If nothing more, it reminds us all to be cautious. I personally have at least one repro that I like to attack tree branches with. Immature, I know, but a good stress-reliever

7th January 2013, 04:51 AM	#16
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,070	Sorry your sword ended up being a repro/fantasy piece, Barry- . Glad to hear you didn't pay too much for it and at least it appears to be a functional sword vs a den decorator. Glenn's pics do indeed show some of the really tricky items that scare me (that first one with the laural leaf pattern on the hilt resembles several French models very closely. If nothing more, it reminds us all to be cautious. I personally have at least one repro that I like to attack tree branches with. Immature, I know, but a good stress-reliever