Encounters of the Third Kind

A. G. Maisey · 3rd December 2010, 12:03 AM

OK, everybody did pretty good with the Jamberooni hilt.

Here's another little mystery.

I've always thought this one was from somewhere around Alpha Centauri.

Anybody got any other ideas on origin?

David · 3rd December 2010, 01:59 PM

I'm surprised no one has responded to this post yet. I certainly don't have an answer for you Alan, but i do like this little fella quite a lot. Love the face, the eyes...definitely something alien about them...

Gavin Nugent · 3rd December 2010, 03:20 PM

No idea here either but I'd say the answer to origins is not so much in the figure to start with but more perhaps in the floral triangular motif to the base...

Gav

Jean · 3rd December 2010, 04:53 PM

OK, I venture on the opinion that this piece comes from Lombok and that it is not a kris hilt but used for a dagger or a betel nut crusher. I would not swear that I am correct of course!
Best regards
Jean

David · 3rd December 2010, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

OK, I venture on the opinion that this piece comes from Lombok and that it is not a kris hilt but used for a dagger or a betel nut crusher. I would not swear that I am correct of course!
Best regards
Jean

Personally i wouldn't commit so far as to even call it an opinion, but i had similar thought guesses as well Jean...

A. G. Maisey · 3rd December 2010, 07:53 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

I'm virtually certain that it is not a pelecok handle:- too big, the hole fits a keris tang well, is too big for a pelecok, it came off a keris that came into Oz a long time ago. Regrettably I do not remember what sort of keris it came off, it was one I bought maybe +50 years ago that needed a lot of work on it, and at that time I was not interested in the same things with keris as I am now.

So --- where have we seen that triangular floral motif before?

Any more suggestions?

David · 3rd December 2010, 09:52 PM

I see variartions on this triangular floral pattern often in Bali hilts and i believe as well in some hits from Madura.

David · 3rd December 2010, 09:55 PM

Here is a hilt that i am fairly convinced is from Madura.

David · 3rd December 2010, 09:56 PM

Of course i think one could also link the pattern on these Javanese hilts to the first example, so it seems to be a pattern shared by the 3 islands at least.

David · 3rd December 2010, 10:09 PM

Here's another Bali example, this time, unfortunately, not in my collection...

Rick · 3rd December 2010, 11:15 PM

Doesn't that motif represent the Tumpal Throne ?

Male Female interface ?

Alan's piece shows only the Male component, right ?

Gustav · 3rd December 2010, 11:29 PM

The oldest examples (keris hilts), where this can be seen, are most probably the golden figural hilts on so called Gowa/Makassar keris. One of them you can see in (and on) van Zonnevelds book.

This is most probably a stylized lotos flower. Later developments are then the Tumpal motivs (stylised lotus is the filling of a single Tumpal) in a row, also with reversed Tumpal. Most of the times you can recognize the three petals and a round centre, which later can be sometimes understood as Bintulu.

This motif you can find from Sumatra till Sulawesi and Lombok, and it is in its origins hinduistic, the seet of a deity (on the base of a keris hilt). So it could be very well a relic from Majapahit times.

BluErf · 4th December 2010, 01:29 AM

Not just Sumatra, but also in N. Peninsula (see silver coteng pic at the bottom), but the thing is that the form of the motif is not the same. In Sumatra/N Peninsula, the motif is fatter/rounder. Anyway, the hilt Alan posted has a style that does not seem to be from the Sumatra/Malay side of the Archipelago, but more of the rounder, more naturalistic forms I thought is usually found on the western side of the archipelago. Ok, this is my guess, but let's see how far off I am.

A. G. Maisey · 4th December 2010, 02:45 AM

Yes, its a representation of the tumpal motif.

Which places it almost certainly somewhere in South East Asia.

In Bali I think this form of the tumpal motif is referred to as "patera mas-masan".

This motif is one of a group of motifs that existed in the Dongson culture and descended into the Malay Peninsula and the Indonesian Archipelago from Northern Vietnam.

It can be found in a wide variety of applications, from pre-historic bronze drums , to Hindu-Buddhist architecture, to batik fabrics, and of course we can find it in keris hilts.

The other motifs in this group that are most frequently encountered are hooks, single spirals, interlocking spirals, and stylised anthropomorphic figures that are connected with ancestor worship.

In its Indonesian incarnation this triangular motif has a number of interpretations, and dependent upon where and how it has been used it might be interpreted as Mt. Meru, The Tree of Life, a symbol of plenty, a protective device to deflect negative influences, amongst other interpretations.

So --- the other places that we've seen it are in S.E.Asian art, and especially Indonesian art.

Would anybody care to look closely at the execution of the carving and and the way in which this tumpal motif has been rendered?

Perhaps these things may provide a clue.

This hilt is 124mm. (a little under 5inches) long.

drdavid · 4th December 2010, 04:33 AM

Alan, what is the line around the lower abdomen seen on the front view, is it a belt or just a ridge.
david

A. G. Maisey · 4th December 2010, 04:46 AM

David, that photograph is deceptive.

It looks like a line, or maybe even like a kangaroo pouch, or the top of a sarung, but it is none of these things. Its just the protruding lower abdomen and the way the light strikes it.

Jean · 4th December 2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Would anybody care to look closely at the execution of the carving and and the way in which this tumpal motif has been rendered?

Perhaps these things may provide a clue.

This hilt is 124mm. (a little under 5inches) long.

Hello Alan,
OK , the hilt is bigger that I expected so it is actually a kris hilt.
According to the unpublished book from the late Bambang Harsrinuskmo "Ukiran dan hulu keris", he shows some rather similar hilts which he calls as primitive style and he attributes them to West Nusa Tenggara (Lombok, Sumbawa, and Sumba) or "Bali or surroundings". He also shows one similar piece but with a carved selut which he says was used by Balinese priests. However we know that Pak Bambang was not a very reliable source of information outside Java.... Sorry I cannot add pictures as I only have a poor quality photocopy of the book.
Personally besides the single tumpal motif I don't see much Hindu influence in this type of hilt.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 4th December 2010, 11:26 AM

Jean, I cannot see anything Hindu at all in this hilt. The tumpal motif goes back a lot further than the Hindu influences in Maritime S.E, Asia.

I really do not know where this hilt is from, so I'm just looking at it the same as everybody else. However, I do have a couple of small advantages:- I've got the thing in my hand, and although I've forgotten what sort of keris it came off, I do know that at the time I got it, I was buying mostly Bali & Lombok keris.

It is too big for a Jawa keris, and that makes it too big for almost any other keris, except Bali & Lombok.

It lacks the refined quality of even a village standard Bali hilt & the overall feeling of the carving is very much like a lot of the stuff that we see coming out of Lombok.

I am very much inclined towards a Lombok origin for this hilt, but I'm more than ready to listen to any other suggestions, especially if a little bit of supportive evidence could be included.

3rd December 2010, 12:03 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	Encounters of the Third Kind OK, everybody did pretty good with the Jamberooni hilt. Here's another little mystery. I've always thought this one was from somewhere around Alpha Centauri. Anybody got any other ideas on origin? Attached Images

3rd December 2010, 03:20 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	No help here No idea here either but I'd say the answer to origins is not so much in the figure to start with but more perhaps in the floral triangular motif to the base... Gav

3rd December 2010, 04:53 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Mysterious hilt OK, I venture on the opinion that this piece comes from Lombok and that it is not a kris hilt but used for a dagger or a betel nut crusher. I would not swear that I am correct of course! Best regards Jean

3rd December 2010, 09:52 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	I see variartions on this triangular floral pattern often in Bali hilts and i believe as well in some hits from Madura. Attached Images

3rd December 2010, 09:55 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Here is a hilt that i am fairly convinced is from Madura. Attached Images

3rd December 2010, 01:59 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	I'm surprised no one has responded to this post yet. I certainly don't have an answer for you Alan, but i do like this little fella quite a lot. Love the face, the eyes...definitely something alien about them...

3rd December 2010, 07:53 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	Thank you gentlemen. I'm virtually certain that it is not a pelecok handle:- too big, the hole fits a keris tang well, is too big for a pelecok, it came off a keris that came into Oz a long time ago. Regrettably I do not remember what sort of keris it came off, it was one I bought maybe +50 years ago that needed a lot of work on it, and at that time I was not interested in the same things with keris as I am now. So --- where have we seen that triangular floral motif before? Any more suggestions?

3rd December 2010, 09:56 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Of course i think one could also link the pattern on these Javanese hilts to the first example, so it seems to be a pattern shared by the 3 islands at least. Attached Images

3rd December 2010, 10:09 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Here's another Bali example, this time, unfortunately, not in my collection... Attached Images

3rd December 2010, 11:15 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Doesn't that motif represent the Tumpal Throne ? Male Female interface ? Alan's piece shows only the Male component, right ?

3rd December 2010, 11:29 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	The oldest examples (keris hilts), where this can be seen, are most probably the golden figural hilts on so called Gowa/Makassar keris. One of them you can see in (and on) van Zonnevelds book. This is most probably a stylized lotos flower. Later developments are then the Tumpal motivs (stylised lotus is the filling of a single Tumpal) in a row, also with reversed Tumpal. Most of the times you can recognize the three petals and a round centre, which later can be sometimes understood as Bintulu. This motif you can find from Sumatra till Sulawesi and Lombok, and it is in its origins hinduistic, the seet of a deity (on the base of a keris hilt). So it could be very well a relic from Majapahit times.

4th December 2010, 01:29 AM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Not just Sumatra, but also in N. Peninsula (see silver coteng pic at the bottom), but the thing is that the form of the motif is not the same. In Sumatra/N Peninsula, the motif is fatter/rounder. Anyway, the hilt Alan posted has a style that does not seem to be from the Sumatra/Malay side of the Archipelago, but more of the rounder, more naturalistic forms I thought is usually found on the western side of the archipelago. Ok, this is my guess, but let's see how far off I am. Attached Images

4th December 2010, 02:45 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	Yes, its a representation of the tumpal motif. Which places it almost certainly somewhere in South East Asia. In Bali I think this form of the tumpal motif is referred to as "patera mas-masan". This motif is one of a group of motifs that existed in the Dongson culture and descended into the Malay Peninsula and the Indonesian Archipelago from Northern Vietnam. It can be found in a wide variety of applications, from pre-historic bronze drums , to Hindu-Buddhist architecture, to batik fabrics, and of course we can find it in keris hilts. The other motifs in this group that are most frequently encountered are hooks, single spirals, interlocking spirals, and stylised anthropomorphic figures that are connected with ancestor worship. In its Indonesian incarnation this triangular motif has a number of interpretations, and dependent upon where and how it has been used it might be interpreted as Mt. Meru, The Tree of Life, a symbol of plenty, a protective device to deflect negative influences, amongst other interpretations. So --- the other places that we've seen it are in S.E.Asian art, and especially Indonesian art. Would anybody care to look closely at the execution of the carving and and the way in which this tumpal motif has been rendered? Perhaps these things may provide a clue. This hilt is 124mm. (a little under 5inches) long.

4th December 2010, 04:33 AM	#15
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 369	Alan, what is the line around the lower abdomen seen on the front view, is it a belt or just a ridge. david

4th December 2010, 04:46 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	David, that photograph is deceptive. It looks like a line, or maybe even like a kangaroo pouch, or the top of a sarung, but it is none of these things. Its just the protruding lower abdomen and the way the light strikes it.

4th December 2010, 11:26 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,703	Jean, I cannot see anything Hindu at all in this hilt. The tumpal motif goes back a lot further than the Hindu influences in Maritime S.E, Asia. I really do not know where this hilt is from, so I'm just looking at it the same as everybody else. However, I do have a couple of small advantages:- I've got the thing in my hand, and although I've forgotten what sort of keris it came off, I do know that at the time I got it, I was buying mostly Bali & Lombok keris. It is too big for a Jawa keris, and that makes it too big for almost any other keris, except Bali & Lombok. It lacks the refined quality of even a village standard Bali hilt & the overall feeling of the carving is very much like a lot of the stuff that we see coming out of Lombok. I am very much inclined towards a Lombok origin for this hilt, but I'm more than ready to listen to any other suggestions, especially if a little bit of supportive evidence could be included.