Opinions please

A. G. Maisey · 7th October 2014, 11:01 PM

The purpose of this thread is to attempt to collect some opinions in respect of the effect that external forces may have had upon the Javanese cultural perception of the keris in Java.

At the present time I believe that most serious students of the keris have a pretty fair idea of the possible, or even probable development of the keris from the time of its appearance in Central Jawa some time around the 8th or 9th century, through to its resurgence in Central Jawa during the 1970's and 1980's.

About 1000 years of development, change, modification, and varying beliefs, and seemingly always attached to the culture of Jawa.

A number of external forces have played a part in the physical shape of the keris as we know it today, that is, as the Modern Keris, the keris form that followed the so-called Keris Buda, and these external forces have probably also had an effect upon the cultural perception of the keris.

There are two well known and obvious external forces that have acted upon Javanese culture and society during the period that has seen the appearance of the Modern Keris, these two forces are Islam, and colonial domination.

I would very much like to hear opinions regarding the possible effects of the influence of these two external forces upon the way in which the Javanese people regard the keris. Possibly other external forces may be able to be identified, and opinions in respect of these other forces will be equally welcome.

The focus is Jawa, and in this context, Jawa must include both Bali and Madura, the subsidiary areas where the keris is found do not need to be considered at this time.

There is no right and no wrong in this exercise. I'm not attempting to open up debate in order to determine right or wrong, I'm attempting to place on record opinions in respect of this matter, nothing more.

Jean · 8th October 2014, 09:28 AM

Hello Alan,
I have no detailed knowledge of the javanese history besides what is found in the well-known reference books but would just like to point-out that:
. Bali remained Hindu and the heir of the Majapahit kingdom, and it was not much influenced by the Dutch until its conquest in 1906-1908 so the balinese kris was not influenced by Islam or the Dutch, and it could therefore be considered as the most original type of modern kris. Another indication is that the krisses brought from Banten and Cirebon during the 16th and early 17th century are quite similar to the traditional balinese krisses which are derived from the Majapahit ones.
. Besides Islam itself and the Dutch, Java was also influenced by India (from where the Muslims came during the 16th/17th century AFAIK) and China because of the massive migration and trading links.
Regards

GIO · 8th October 2014, 05:10 PM

I would take this opportunity to ask a question about Bali kerises.
While the development of the figural hilts is easily explained, I would know why, contrary to what happened in the whole archipelago (excepted the long Sumatran kerises), in Bali the size has developed remarkably, though always respecting proportions.
Thanks in advance

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2014, 11:24 PM

Thanks for your contribution Jean.

The thrust of my question concerns :-

"--- the effect that external forces may have had upon the Javanese cultural perception of the keris in Java. "

In other words I am seeking opinions about how outside influences may have affected or contributed to the way in which the Javanese regarded the Javanese keris.

We can identify many purely physical contributions, contributions that are also seen in the wider field of Javanese art and culture, one very obvious example can be used to illustrate this, the way in which the singo barong is rendered. The singo barong is seen as a lion, on a keris it possibly carries association with a warrior, and this association is in a direct line from Hindu culture, however, there are no lions in Jawa, so when it came time to produce an image of a lion, the Javanese drew upon Chinese representations of a lion, and now we have these pretty little fu-dog lions that in Javanese understanding can be interpreted as lions. A combination of Hindu + Chinese input to Javanese artistic expression.

Alternatively, maybe the entire interpretation of the singo barong as being associated with the warrior is wrong:- maybe it is a direct lift from Chinese culture, and a very strong argument can be mounted for this.

But these things are physical.

What I am trying to get opinions on is the way in which factors from outside Javanese culture and society may have influenced the way in which the Javanese people regarded something that has become one of their major cultural symbols.

As to the possibility of outside influences on the Balinese keris, I suggest that nothing can be taken for granted. Bear this in mind:- I am not looking for physical influences, but rather how an outside factor may have contributed to an internal cultural perception or belief.

It is inarguable that Indian and Chinese contact with Jawa existed from a very early time, I think it is accepted that Indian contact existed from the second century AD, and Chinese contact from perhaps a little later, but in any case both India and China were contributing to Javanese cultural development well before the period that saw the appearance of the Modern Keris. In fact, in the 1950's, when I began my study of Jawa, I was repeatedly told that Jawa was an Indian sub-culture. This point of view has now altered, but this is the way Jawa used to be seen, not as a culture in its own right, but rather as a sub-culture of India.

So, how did influences from outside Jawa contribute to or influence the way in which the Javanese people have regarded, and now regard, the Javanese keris?

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2014, 11:26 PM

Giovanni, this was a question of mine for many years, and although I do have an answer of sorts, it remains only partially clarified, I believe.

Many years ago I put this question to a Balinese priest whom I knew very well. His answer was brief:- "big man : big keris".

Some time later I put the same question to a very well known keris authority from outside Bali, but who has spent considerable time in Bali. His answer came back in almost the same words :- "big man : big keris" (they were the same words actually, but the Balinese gentleman was speaking in Indonesian, the authority was speaking in English)

There are two ways to understand this statement, firstly, overall the Balinese are taller and more strongly built than the Javanese, so for a keris to be in proportion to body size, a Balinese keris would need to be considerably larger than a Javanese keris.

The other way it can be understood is if the keris size were to be used as a hierarchical indicator, where the concept of "big man" would be interpreted as a man of higher status. It should be noted that Bali is an intensely hierarchical society.

These two things are also worth noting:- many of the old North Coast Jawa keris were at least as large as a Balinese keris. Not many of these keris exist anymore, but apparently they were quite prevalent in previous times. It seems that most of these "super-size" Javanese keris were turned into keris of a more marketable nature. The second thing worthy of mention is that some very early Balinese keris were quite small, I have one early Balinese keris that would seem to be able to be classified as Majapahit, and this keris is smaller than the average Javanese keris, apart from this keris, I have seen and owned other quite small Balinese keris.

Timo Nieminen · 9th October 2014, 12:50 AM

One sees in many countries a strong emphasis put on a selection of traditional cultural symbols in response to modernisation, or colonial domination, or foreign influence. Sometimes new things are re-configured as new "traditional" cultural symbols. This can occur as resistance to foreign/colonial pressure to change, or as reclamation of traditional cultural markers after gaining independence after colonial rule.

Some of the cultural things so emphasised in some countries include traditional dress, traditional festivals, traditional food (or "traditional" food, often less than a century old), song, dance, theatre, royalty, martial arts, national weapons.

I don't have an answer, but I have a question: is this important in Java, and for the keris in Java?

7th October 2014, 11:01 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Opinions please The purpose of this thread is to attempt to collect some opinions in respect of the effect that external forces may have had upon the Javanese cultural perception of the keris in Java. At the present time I believe that most serious students of the keris have a pretty fair idea of the possible, or even probable development of the keris from the time of its appearance in Central Jawa some time around the 8th or 9th century, through to its resurgence in Central Jawa during the 1970's and 1980's. About 1000 years of development, change, modification, and varying beliefs, and seemingly always attached to the culture of Jawa. A number of external forces have played a part in the physical shape of the keris as we know it today, that is, as the Modern Keris, the keris form that followed the so-called Keris Buda, and these external forces have probably also had an effect upon the cultural perception of the keris. There are two well known and obvious external forces that have acted upon Javanese culture and society during the period that has seen the appearance of the Modern Keris, these two forces are Islam, and colonial domination. I would very much like to hear opinions regarding the possible effects of the influence of these two external forces upon the way in which the Javanese people regard the keris. Possibly other external forces may be able to be identified, and opinions in respect of these other forces will be equally welcome. The focus is Jawa, and in this context, Jawa must include both Bali and Madura, the subsidiary areas where the keris is found do not need to be considered at this time. There is no right and no wrong in this exercise. I'm not attempting to open up debate in order to determine right or wrong, I'm attempting to place on record opinions in respect of this matter, nothing more.

8th October 2014, 09:28 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, I have no detailed knowledge of the javanese history besides what is found in the well-known reference books but would just like to point-out that: . Bali remained Hindu and the heir of the Majapahit kingdom, and it was not much influenced by the Dutch until its conquest in 1906-1908 so the balinese kris was not influenced by Islam or the Dutch, and it could therefore be considered as the most original type of modern kris. Another indication is that the krisses brought from Banten and Cirebon during the 16th and early 17th century are quite similar to the traditional balinese krisses which are derived from the Majapahit ones. . Besides Islam itself and the Dutch, Java was also influenced by India (from where the Muslims came during the 16th/17th century AFAIK) and China because of the massive migration and trading links. Regards Last edited by Jean; 8th October 2014 at 01:11 PM.

8th October 2014, 05:10 PM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 310	I would take this opportunity to ask a question about Bali kerises. While the development of the figural hilts is easily explained, I would know why, contrary to what happened in the whole archipelago (excepted the long Sumatran kerises), in Bali the size has developed remarkably, though always respecting proportions. Thanks in advance

8th October 2014, 11:24 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Thanks for your contribution Jean. The thrust of my question concerns :- "--- the effect that external forces may have had upon the Javanese cultural perception of the keris in Java. " In other words I am seeking opinions about how outside influences may have affected or contributed to the way in which the Javanese regarded the Javanese keris. We can identify many purely physical contributions, contributions that are also seen in the wider field of Javanese art and culture, one very obvious example can be used to illustrate this, the way in which the singo barong is rendered. The singo barong is seen as a lion, on a keris it possibly carries association with a warrior, and this association is in a direct line from Hindu culture, however, there are no lions in Jawa, so when it came time to produce an image of a lion, the Javanese drew upon Chinese representations of a lion, and now we have these pretty little fu-dog lions that in Javanese understanding can be interpreted as lions. A combination of Hindu + Chinese input to Javanese artistic expression. Alternatively, maybe the entire interpretation of the singo barong as being associated with the warrior is wrong:- maybe it is a direct lift from Chinese culture, and a very strong argument can be mounted for this. But these things are physical. What I am trying to get opinions on is the way in which factors from outside Javanese culture and society may have influenced the way in which the Javanese people regarded something that has become one of their major cultural symbols. As to the possibility of outside influences on the Balinese keris, I suggest that nothing can be taken for granted. Bear this in mind:- I am not looking for physical influences, but rather how an outside factor may have contributed to an internal cultural perception or belief. It is inarguable that Indian and Chinese contact with Jawa existed from a very early time, I think it is accepted that Indian contact existed from the second century AD, and Chinese contact from perhaps a little later, but in any case both India and China were contributing to Javanese cultural development well before the period that saw the appearance of the Modern Keris. In fact, in the 1950's, when I began my study of Jawa, I was repeatedly told that Jawa was an Indian sub-culture. This point of view has now altered, but this is the way Jawa used to be seen, not as a culture in its own right, but rather as a sub-culture of India. So, how did influences from outside Jawa contribute to or influence the way in which the Javanese people have regarded, and now regard, the Javanese keris?

8th October 2014, 11:26 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Giovanni, this was a question of mine for many years, and although I do have an answer of sorts, it remains only partially clarified, I believe. Many years ago I put this question to a Balinese priest whom I knew very well. His answer was brief:- "big man : big keris". Some time later I put the same question to a very well known keris authority from outside Bali, but who has spent considerable time in Bali. His answer came back in almost the same words :- "big man : big keris" (they were the same words actually, but the Balinese gentleman was speaking in Indonesian, the authority was speaking in English) There are two ways to understand this statement, firstly, overall the Balinese are taller and more strongly built than the Javanese, so for a keris to be in proportion to body size, a Balinese keris would need to be considerably larger than a Javanese keris. The other way it can be understood is if the keris size were to be used as a hierarchical indicator, where the concept of "big man" would be interpreted as a man of higher status. It should be noted that Bali is an intensely hierarchical society. These two things are also worth noting:- many of the old North Coast Jawa keris were at least as large as a Balinese keris. Not many of these keris exist anymore, but apparently they were quite prevalent in previous times. It seems that most of these "super-size" Javanese keris were turned into keris of a more marketable nature. The second thing worthy of mention is that some very early Balinese keris were quite small, I have one early Balinese keris that would seem to be able to be classified as Majapahit, and this keris is smaller than the average Javanese keris, apart from this keris, I have seen and owned other quite small Balinese keris.

9th October 2014, 12:50 AM	#6
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	One sees in many countries a strong emphasis put on a selection of traditional cultural symbols in response to modernisation, or colonial domination, or foreign influence. Sometimes new things are re-configured as new "traditional" cultural symbols. This can occur as resistance to foreign/colonial pressure to change, or as reclamation of traditional cultural markers after gaining independence after colonial rule. Some of the cultural things so emphasised in some countries include traditional dress, traditional festivals, traditional food (or "traditional" food, often less than a century old), song, dance, theatre, royalty, martial arts, national weapons. I don't have an answer, but I have a question: is this important in Java, and for the keris in Java?