What is this??

kahnjar1 · 3rd July 2011, 01:26 AM

Have just picked this up, and the pics are the sellers. Has to be Moroccan judging by the blade style, but I have not seen a sword version of the Koumyya dagger before. No reference in any of my books either. Blade length is 52cm (20 1/2")
What do we think Gentlemen?

A.alnakkas · 3rd July 2011, 01:38 AM

Hilt style looks very indian to me. This is either a composite or an indian blacksmith experimenting by mixing morrocan and indian styles. Blade doesnt really suggest a morrocan origin, the scabbard does though.

A.alnakkas · 3rd July 2011, 01:40 AM

After a 2nd look, the blade does look very similar to koummya blades.

Rick · 3rd July 2011, 02:18 AM

The blade engraving reminds me of Okir style work .
Doubt that it is Phillipine though .

Gavin Nugent · 3rd July 2011, 06:01 AM

Stu,

It seems this one did the rounds once before;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=jewish+sosun

It appears to be an Indian Moroccan Malay hybrid.

Gav

kahnjar1 · 3rd July 2011, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Stu,

It seems this one did the rounds once before;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=jewish+sosun

It appears to be an Indian Moroccan Malay hybrid.

Gav

...so there are at least two of these (whatever they are) in existance! The one in the previous post,(and thanks for the link), has very different blade decoration, and the scabbard has two bands, where mine does not have any. Also the decoration at the scabbard mouth and on the hilt against the scabbard is diofferent. Mine is all circle shape decoration and the other is not. Comparative pics attached......
....which means we have an Indian hilt maker who likes moroccan style blades??..... or they are in fact some unknown Moroccan sword/knife. I see from the comments in the other post, that that particular one came with a Nimcha.....so Morocco??
But still the question....What is it?

Dom · 3rd July 2011, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

....which means we have an Indian hilt maker who likes moroccan style blades??..... or they are in fact some unknown Moroccan sword/knife. I see from the comments in the other post, that that particular one came with a Nimcha.....so Morocco??
But still the question....What is it?

Hi Stu
for me, it's a variant of the Moroccan "shula"
- scabbard, and blade are conform
- hilt, inspiration Indian, why not ?

in an old EAA post
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...6&page=1&pp=30
I found this "shula" pic, here also, the hilt is an other variant

but definitively, your blade has all characteristics of Moroccan blacksmith

the "shula" apparently, never been an fighting weapon,
even if this dagger is potentially very lethal,
was used for weddings, or other ceremonies

I think the Moroccan craftsmen, demonstrated some originality,
or meet a particular command of one of their customers
beautiful proof, of creativity, and artistic spirit

à +

Dom

katana · 3rd July 2011, 02:22 PM

Hi Stu,
cannot add any other ideas that hasn't already been said. But, I am intriqued by the curved spike on the pommel.....it looks as if it would interfere with the wielding hand ...perhaps painfully ? Any ideas why it is there ?

Kind Regards David

kahnjar1 · 4th July 2011, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Stu,
cannot add any other ideas that hasn't already been said. But, I am intriqued by the curved spike on the pommel.....it looks as if it would interfere with the wielding hand ...perhaps painfully ? Any ideas why it is there ?

Kind Regards David

Bottle opener??

Seriously though I have no idea. As it has not arrived yet I can not comment as to it interfering with the grip.
Really more interested in finding out WHAT this knife/sword is.

kahnjar1 · 5th July 2011, 07:53 AM

SURELY SOMEBODY MUST HAVE AN IDEA???

Atlantia · 6th July 2011, 09:47 AM

Hi Stu,

I'm sure we've all seen a lot of modern Indian daggers with these Parrot head hilts.
But as has been pointed out, there is a tradition of using them.
I'd say from looking at yours, that the 'beak' although on the face of it seeming like a bad idea, would possibly not interfere with a grip as there seems to be enough room for a little finger under it. The gap seems sufficient.

Without the parrot head, this would be a big koummya/Shula. For me the blade and scabbard are not different enough from examples I've seen to raise any eyebrows (apart maybe from the size!).

As for if it was made by a Moroccan who'd seen an Indian dagger or an Indian copying a Moroccan form or even making it for a Moroccan customer......
Could be any.
My first thought was Indian in the Moroccan style, but the decoration and construction remind me of native koummya.
Koummya even turn up with imported european blades made in the traditional form.

So, no conclusive answer, but I'd spend some time comparing construction and decoration once you have it in hand. That should complete the puzzle.
A nice thing actually.

some good old threads on Koummya:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html

Martin Lubojacky · 6th July 2011, 04:22 PM

The blade, style of decoration both on the sheath and handle is Maghreb.

Not the same, but also interesting case of Maghreb art: Below please find 10 years old photo of dagger from Tunissia: It was cca 45 cms long, big - massive handle with cock head pommel, the the scabbard and handle made of massive pure silver - and it was new (nevertheless very professional work) at that time.
regards,
Martin

kahnjar1 · 8th August 2011, 07:40 AM

Well it has at long last arrived! A really nice item in the flesh. That spike does NOT interfere in any way with the grip. There is plenty of room for my hand without it touching the spike.
.................and we are no closer in identifying what it is?? Presumably Indo- Persian but with a very "moroccan type" blade??

Tim Simmons · 8th August 2011, 09:11 PM

North African . The blade, the scabbard fittings, can be nothing else! That is a strong statement.

Battara · 8th August 2011, 11:24 PM

The workmanship and, chasing work, scabbard, and blade do look Moroccan don't they? Although the hilt looks Indian......

kahnjar1 · 9th August 2011, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

North African . The blade, the scabbard fittings, can be nothing else! That is a strong statement.

I agree.........BUT WHAT IS IT? Is it a Shula variant or is it something else entirely? As stated previously I can find nothing like it in any books I have, although it is obviously NOT a one off, as the previous thread pics included above show a very similar but not the same item.

3rd July 2011, 01:26 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	What is this?? Have just picked this up, and the pics are the sellers. Has to be Moroccan judging by the blade style, but I have not seen a sword version of the Koumyya dagger before. No reference in any of my books either. Blade length is 52cm (20 1/2") What do we think Gentlemen? Attached Images

3rd July 2011, 06:01 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	one the rounds before Stu, It seems this one did the rounds once before; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=jewish+sosun It appears to be an Indian Moroccan Malay hybrid. Gav

5th July 2011, 07:53 AM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	???? SURELY SOMEBODY MUST HAVE AN IDEA???

6th July 2011, 04:22 PM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	The blade, style of decoration both on the sheath and handle is Maghreb. Not the same, but also interesting case of Maghreb art: Below please find 10 years old photo of dagger from Tunissia: It was cca 45 cms long, big - massive handle with cock head pommel, the the scabbard and handle made of massive pure silver - and it was new (nevertheless very professional work) at that time. regards, Martin Attached Images

3rd July 2011, 01:38 AM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Hilt style looks very indian to me. This is either a composite or an indian blacksmith experimenting by mixing morrocan and indian styles. Blade doesnt really suggest a morrocan origin, the scabbard does though.

3rd July 2011, 01:40 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	After a 2nd look, the blade does look very similar to koummya blades.

3rd July 2011, 02:18 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	The blade engraving reminds me of Okir style work . Doubt that it is Phillipine though .

3rd July 2011, 02:22 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Stu, cannot add any other ideas that hasn't already been said. But, I am intriqued by the curved spike on the pommel.....it looks as if it would interfere with the wielding hand ...perhaps painfully ? Any ideas why it is there ? Kind Regards David

6th July 2011, 09:47 AM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Stu, I'm sure we've all seen a lot of modern Indian daggers with these Parrot head hilts. But as has been pointed out, there is a tradition of using them. I'd say from looking at yours, that the 'beak' although on the face of it seeming like a bad idea, would possibly not interfere with a grip as there seems to be enough room for a little finger under it. The gap seems sufficient. Without the parrot head, this would be a big koummya/Shula. For me the blade and scabbard are not different enough from examples I've seen to raise any eyebrows (apart maybe from the size!). As for if it was made by a Moroccan who'd seen an Indian dagger or an Indian copying a Moroccan form or even making it for a Moroccan customer...... Could be any. My first thought was Indian in the Moroccan style, but the decoration and construction remind me of native koummya. Koummya even turn up with imported european blades made in the traditional form. So, no conclusive answer, but I'd spend some time comparing construction and decoration once you have it in hand. That should complete the puzzle. A nice thing actually. some good old threads on Koummya: http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/koummya/index.html

8th August 2011, 07:40 AM	#13
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	Well it has at long last arrived! A really nice item in the flesh. That spike does NOT interfere in any way with the grip. There is plenty of room for my hand without it touching the spike. .................and we are no closer in identifying what it is?? Presumably Indo- Persian but with a very "moroccan type" blade??

8th August 2011, 09:11 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	North African . The blade, the scabbard fittings, can be nothing else! That is a strong statement.

8th August 2011, 11:24 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	The workmanship and, chasing work, scabbard, and blade do look Moroccan don't they? Although the hilt looks Indian......