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Old 6th June 2007, 01:39 PM   #31
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Welcome Hana. For some reason i also seem to have a special interest in patrem.
Don't be afraid to ask too many questions. That is how we all learn. And just because you are new to the keris world doesn't mean you have nothing to offer yourself. I look forward to your continuing participation.
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Old 8th June 2007, 07:02 PM   #32
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Hi David,

Thank you for your kind understanding. I want to be clear on certain guidelines in asking too many questions. If more newbies like me were to come on board, I’m sure this warung will be chaotic. By then, I think you will prefer to have more ghost readers than members being too talkative.

I’m thankful to Ganjawulung who has created this thread to bring forth the discussion on patrem. To date, I’m still reading on them. I will continue my participation as long as I’m welcome here.

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Old 8th June 2007, 08:19 PM   #33
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Hana, be sure to check into the search function on this forum. You can search the old forum as well. You might find answers to many of your questions have already been posted.
Look at our name Hana. We are like a coffee house. You can't get too talkative in a coffee house.
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Old 10th June 2007, 05:11 PM   #34
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Hi David,

Thank you for the tips for it’s quite a handful to read. No worries, I will pose questions if there’s any doubts.

As for being too talkative, you have to specify the scenario. Is it coffee house by the roadside, cybercafé or food court? At the end of the day, there must be mutual respect among us. I guess we will have to take turns or take queue numbers if indeed the coffee house gets too heated up or noisy one day…
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Old 12th June 2007, 07:25 AM   #35
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Default Medium Patrem?

Dear All,

Again, I present to you some pictures. This time again, about patrem. What would you call a "medium size" keris which is a little bigger than patrem, but smaller than the normal keris? (See picture, keris in the middle).

I have some kerises with sizes like this: smaller than the normal kerises, but bigger than patrem. The sheath is like normal kerises (second picture below). Please enlighten me...

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Old 11th July 2007, 04:54 PM   #36
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Hi Ganjawulung

Do you mind giving the overall dimension of the “medium size” keris? I guess this thread has been neglected as there maybe only a handful of patrem collectors. I’m trying to collate references on patrem and asking around for more referencing link.

Looking forward to share my findings and would appreciate input from the others as well.

Sincerely,
Hana
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Old 11th July 2007, 09:17 PM   #37
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Hello Hana,

I do think that there are quite a few folks interested in patrem, including me.
However, with my digicam still broken, I'm a bit out of the loop...

Here's an older thread on a weird piece of mine:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=14181
Any additional insights welcome!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 12th July 2007, 01:45 AM   #38
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Hi kerislovers,

I wonder whether modern small Trengganu / Kelantan made wedding keris is qualified to be termed as patrem too?
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Old 12th July 2007, 04:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HanaChu69
Hi Ganjawulung

Do you mind giving the overall dimension of the “medium size” keris? I guess this thread has been neglected as there maybe only a handful of patrem collectors. I’m trying to collate references on patrem and asking around for more referencing link.

Looking forward to share my findings and would appreciate input from the others as well.

Sincerely,
Hana


Yes, Hana Chu,
I will measure it, with pleasure. But please, give me some more time to do it. Thank you, for your kind attention. Actually, it is not easy to get patrems, good old patrems -- even in Java.

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Old 12th July 2007, 07:46 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Yes, Hana Chu,
I will measure it, with pleasure. But please, give me some more time to do it. Thank you, for your kind attention. Actually, it is not easy to get patrems, good old patrems -- even in Java.

Ganjawulung


Yes, old patrems do seem to be a rarity. Perhaps that is part of why i am drawn to them...but also, i think, it is because the keris is in general culturally considered a male possession, so i am intrigued by the ones that were created specifically for women. Certainly it would seem logical that because there are far less of these women's keris around that they weren't considered an essential item for them in the way they are for men. So does anybody know who these women were who owned keris. It doesn't seem that there were meant for just any woman. Was it reserved for a certain societial class of women or would, for instance, the farmers wife have one? Very little seems to have been written about just how these blades fit into Indonesian culture.
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Old 14th July 2007, 03:43 AM   #41
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Default Woman and Wedung

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
So does anybody know who these women were who owned keris. It doesn't seem that there were meant for just any woman. Was it reserved for a certain societial class of women or would, for instance, the farmers wife have one? Very little seems to have been written about just how these blades fit into Indonesian culture.

Dear David,
It seems very rare, women in Java seen in public with keris. Except in "wayang orang" (traditional theater of wayang) in Central and East Java. Or in royal dance in palaces. But fortunately, I found a picture in one documentation which shows a woman wearing a wedung. The text shows that a woman-bupati (a royal or governor officer in charge of a regency) is wearing a wedung in the complete royal uniform.

Wedung itself, called as "pasikon" in royal term. In the text, it is meant for a high rank officer -- from the rank of regent to upper rank. Pasikon is also meant for Pangeran putra sentana (younger nobleman).

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Old 14th July 2007, 12:46 PM   #42
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Greetings avid patrem collectors,

Ganjawulung – Appreciate the useful and instructional pictures that you’ve share with us. However, I would need a favour from you and the others to check your library of Javanese resources on the mission and purpose of patrem. What qualifies a keris to be categorize as patrem? Does it apply to the length of the blade of a specific range i.e. 20 – 30 cm only as in “sekilan”? Are there any other factors to be considered? Are they specifically being used only as a talisman and weapon? What are their other uses? Are there any specific targeted age group? I personally feel the referencing facts given are crucial and must be accurate. I hope you could shed some factual light to our frequently asked questions.

Kai – Thanks for the link. At least I’m aware that there are quite a few folks out there interested in patrem.

Penangsang – I’m not too sure about Malay patrem and that if we can apply the same context. I know for sure that nowadays it’s difficult to scout for one in Malaysia.

Kind regards,
Hana

P.S – Some questions posed above were left unanswered in other forum. It could be there’s no patrem expert around to provide factual referencing.
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Old 14th July 2007, 02:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HanaChu69
Ganjawulung – Appreciate the useful and instructional pictures that you’ve share with us. However, I would need a favour from you and the others to check your library of Javanese resources on the mission and purpose of patrem. What qualifies a keris to be categorize as patrem? Does it apply to the length of the blade of a specific range i.e. 20 – 30 cm only as in “sekilan”? Are there any other factors to be considered? Are they specifically being used only as a talisman and weapon? What are their other uses? Are there any specific targeted age group? I personally feel the referencing facts given are crucial and must be accurate. I hope you could shed some factual light to our frequently asked questions.

P.S – Some questions posed above were left unanswered in other forum. It could be there’s no patrem expert around to provide factual referencing.

Hi Hana,
I am still checking to my library on patrem. But I'm quite sure, if it is related to categorization -- based on the length of the keris -- then the measurement range is not in centimeter. Almost all Indoensian traditional culture's art, is measured with natural measurement. Also, no meter measurement for candi-candi...

At least there are three kinds of kerises, based on the measurement. Please see this keris website http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/keris07.html (1) Pasikutan. It is called pasikutan -- because related to "sikut" (human elbow) -- if the length of he keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris is as long as the length from the tip of human finger until the elbow. (2) Patrem. It is called patrem if the length of the keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris, is as long as the length of one span of adult human footstep. (3) Cundrik. It is called cundrik if the length of the keris, measured from the ganja until the point of the keris is as long as the length from the tip of human finger until the wrist.

Pasikutan, has also another meaning. It is related to "the visual impression" of keris -- whether it is "angker" (eerie, fearsome), or "berwibawa" (having an authoritative bearing) etc -- or "wagu" (clumsy, awkward).

Cundrik, can also be interpreted as the name of a dhapur, straight keris with the size as normal keris. Please, correct me if I'm wrong...

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Old 15th July 2007, 03:49 AM   #44
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Default Javanese Tala

Hi Hana,
This is only an additional illustration, related to the Javanese measurement. I will take analogy of measuring candi or temple, for illustrating the measurement of kerises.

According to the late Mr Parmono Atmadi (formerly the Dean of Technical Faculty of Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta), the basic units measurement used in building temples in Java is the "tala".

One Javanese tala, according to this architectural research, is the length of a normal face measured from the top of the forehead to the tip of the chin, which is the same as the distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the middle finger when the hand is stretched to its maximum length. The Javanese tala was used in measuring ornaments, statues, and alcoves of buildings as well as the temples themselves...(Some Architectural Design Principles of Temples in Java, Gadjah Mada University Press 1988 -- page 182)

If we take the tala as the basic unit of measurement for this study, clearly it would be difficult to standardize it in term of metric measurements, since it would be different for each person. Even if we take the average measurement for Javanese today, we cannot be certain that this is the same as the average measurement for the Javanese at that time. So, the design principle (in building candis, or maybe making kerises) simply stresses the ratio between building components (keris components), since the guide is not dependent on any unit of measurement... (Parmono Atmadi)

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Old 16th July 2007, 03:38 PM   #45
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Dear Ganjawulung,

Thank you so much for all the info and May Allah bless you for all your effort. I’m sorry for this late reply as I’m very tied up. However, I will look up on patrem from my resources over the coming weekend (If there’s any and if I could find anything relevant). I sure hope we will be able to share and compare our findings.

Warm regards,
Hana
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Old 17th July 2007, 05:19 AM   #46
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Hana & friends,

Since most Javanese & Malay cultures were very much influenced by Hinduism, would it be possible that patrem was once used by women not only as a self defence weapon but also as a suicide implement that was connected to "satee" esp when the husbands died during battle. Off course this ritual, I suspect had existed before the inhabitants of Malay archipelago converted to Islam.
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Old 30th July 2007, 01:38 AM   #47
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Default Patrem Naga

Dear All,
Gandhik naga (front section of keris base with naga or dragon relief) is only found in Javanese kerises. You may find such dhapur naga name as: Nagasasra, Naga Siluman (the invisible naga), Naga Tapa (ascetic naga), Naga Penganten (naga bride) in many kerises. Even in small keris like this picture. This keris, with relief of naga with crown and relief of a deer in the triangle of keris base, is only one span of a normal palm-hand. (Please compare with a normal keris in the picture).

I hope it is not wasting your time, just to see this post...

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Old 30th July 2007, 02:45 AM   #48
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Only Javanese keris Pak Ganja?

It seems I learn something new everyday.
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Old 30th July 2007, 02:52 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Gandhik naga (front section of keris base with naga or dragon relief) is only found in Javanese kerises.


I have certainly seen Bali keris naga.
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Old 30th July 2007, 03:33 AM   #50
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Hmmm... Naga pieces are also found in Northern Peninsular (see pic) and Riau-Lingga Archipelago, (an example in Asian Civilizations Museum, Singapore). There are quite a number in Sumatra as well.

Although I believe it originated from Java and found its way to other regions.

@quotes from Dave Henkel's site
There are a surprising variety of Peninsular forms although there is little information about the dapur or shape of the blade. Take a look at this interesting naga blade. (Pattani, Southern Thailand... anonymous collector.)
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Old 30th July 2007, 03:43 AM   #51
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Default Keris Naga

Dear David and Shahrial,
Yes, I think I must correct my previous statement that I quote from Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo. (See Naga, Gandhik page 304 Ensiklopedi Keris). I found too, naga or other relief in Lombok kerises. (See picture) And in Lombok, kerises with relief in the gandhik such as naga, pendeta (priest), elephant etc, called as "keris tantri".. (See, Keris in Lombok, by Lalu Djelenga, page 165)

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Old 30th July 2007, 11:44 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Yes, I think I must correct my previous statement that I quote from Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo. (See Naga, Gandhik page 304 Ensiklopedi Keris).

This is a good example how even what one might consider their most trusted reference book on keris is bound to have errors in it. I have yet to find any book that doesn't have some mistakes in it.
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Old 30th July 2007, 03:03 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
This is a good example how even what one might consider their most trusted reference book on keris is bound to have errors in it. I have yet to find any book that doesn't have some mistakes in it.

Yes David,
Similar example as the book I trusted much on keris, De Kris. It was inaccurate when it mentioned "keris sajen" (small kerises for offering) as "keris majapahit". It misled many people outside Indonesia, (many western writers continued that error) that keris from Majapahit era was only like that.

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Old 30th July 2007, 03:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Yes David,
Similar example as the book I trusted much on keris, De Kris. It was inaccurate when it mentioned "keris sajen" (small kerises for offering) as "keris majapahit". It misled many people outside Indonesia, (many western writers continued that error) that keris from Majapahit era was only like that.

Ganjawulung


very true...
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Old 31st July 2007, 02:56 AM   #55
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Default S e k i n g

In many occasions, in a couple of keris book, this "mini keris", patrem size keris with handle and blade in one piece, often called as "keris majapahit". Or "keris pichit" in Malay term. (Please see, pictures, and comparison to the normal Javanese keris)

Just see the older books, like De Kris (Magic Relic of Old Indonesia) which was written by Mr Ing GJFJ Tammens (page 114-115), or the Malaysian book "The Keris and Other Malay Weapons" (AH Hill, GC Woolley, HC Keith, GM Laidlaw, GB Gardner, E Banks and Abu Bakar bin Pawanchee).

Even Mr Hill, mentioned more than once in the glossary of keris term, that "keris majapahit is earliest form of keris; hilt and blade in one piece". (page 71 and 131). Mr Gardner even divided, between "male and female" of "keris majapahit".

Keris Majapahit "jantan" (male) according to Gardner, was forged by a male smith with final tempering by being drawn under armpit (Gardner, 1936:43), and Keris Majapahit "perempuan" (female) forge by a female smith with inter vulva tempering (loc cit) page 71.

Mr Gardner wrote about Keris Majapahit (quote) "during twenty years in Malaya I have heard many stories about Keris Majapahit and Keris Pichit, but I have seen only eight Keris Majapahit and three Pichit altogether..." (page 158).

Mr Woolley even mentioned in the Malay book, that "Keris Majapahit was the early dagger of the Majapahit empire) and the figure is of the same size and type..."

Mr Abu Bakar bin Pawanchee wrote about "An Unusual Keris Majapahit" which has the handle faces the edge on the side of the dagu (chin). Page 170.

If those were the only true types of Majapahit kerises, then, it was so sad. Because Majapahit was a glorious era of keris making in Java -- in styles, in dhapur, metal material, and quite eye-catching to recognize that those keris came from Majapahit, or at least -- with Majapahit style. The diverse of kerises through the Archipelago, was happened in this era, and the earlier era of Singasari (see, the Pamalayu Expedition during the reign of King Kertanegara from Singasari 1275. Melayu -- part of Sumatera now, was occupied by Kertanegara's soldier in 1286. See Prof Dr Slamet Muljana in "The Fall of the Javanese Hindu Kingdoms and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" 1968)

Then, what was actually the "Keris Majapahit" as many western writers wrote? Those smaller kerises, were actually "keris sajen" (keris for offerings, according to Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo -- ensiklopedi keris). And according to Mr Haryono Haryoguritno, those are "seking" or mini keris used for offering. For instance, in a Javanese ritual ceremony of "tedhak siti" (a little child begins to learn walking to the ground). At the ceremony, Javanese people in the old days usually gave offering consist of fruits and small keris, mini keris, sajen keris... Are those really the only kerises from Majapahit?

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Old 31st July 2007, 05:58 AM   #56
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Default Keris Majapahit

Pak Ganja & fellow keris lovers,

Definitely not Pak ganja, and I thought I asked the same question in the "Majapahit Revisited" thread. And I totally agree with you that during Kertanegara's to Hayam Wuruk's reign (and even during the last years of Majapahit's glorious empire), there must be a lot of keris daphurs created by the palace artisans, not to mention the daphurs created by the famous Empu Supa. So, I also tend to agree that the glory of keris making were so prevalent during Majapahit era for Jawa keris, and subsequently the whole archipelago. There was also an opinion from a good friend, even the Pattani / Malay keris (Pandai Saras) originated from a Majapahit fugitive empu's creation mixed with the local taste & battle requirement.

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Old 31st July 2007, 12:55 PM   #57
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Keris Mojopahit (sajen) has been a point of confusion for some time know, but i don't think anyone here thinks they were the only keris to be made during the Mojopahit period (and indeed most of the keris sajen now on the market were made in later periods, many right up to the present day )
I am fairly sure Tammens didn't believe the keris sajen were the only keris from the Mojopahit era because he shows many keris in his first volume which he IDs as being Mojopahit. Though i don't own the Gardner book i suspect he was conciously relating folk tale, not fact, when he wrote about unusual methods of tempering blades.
Hill's statement that "keris majapahit is earliest form of keris; hilt and blade in one piece" does not mean he was unaware of more developed blades in the Mojopahit period. It was just his belief, perhaps flawed, that the keris sajen is the "earliest" form. The same can be said of Woolley.
AFAIK keris mojopahit (sajen) and keris pichit do not refer to the same thing. I thought keris pichit referred to those talismanic blades that had the impressions of the makers fingertips along the blade.
Certainly these writers got many other points wrong, but i think they were all aware keris sajen were not the only keris to be made in the Mojopahit period.
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Old 31st July 2007, 01:52 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Keris Mojopahit (sajen) has been a point of confusion for some time know, but i don't think anyone here thinks they were the only keris to be made during the Mojopahit period (and indeed most of the keris sajen now on the market were made in later periods, many right up to the present day )
I am fairly sure Tammens didn't believe the keris sajen were the only keris from the Mojopahit era because he shows many keris in his first volume which he IDs as being Mojopahit. Though i don't own the Gardner book i suspect he was conciously relating folk tale, not fact, when he wrote about unusual methods of tempering blades.
Hill's statement that "keris majapahit is earliest form of keris; hilt and blade in one piece" does not mean he was unaware of more developed blades in the Mojopahit period. It was just his belief, perhaps flawed, that the keris sajen is the "earliest" form. The same can be said of Woolley.

Yes, David, I agree with you...
What's hanging in my mind everytime I open all pages of "The Keris and Other Malay Weapons" (1998) is, how come? The very small keris -- that the writers called as "keris majapahit" -- took quite a lot of proportions, compared to the whole content of the book. Almost mentioned in every article, and as if it is the center point of comparison with other bigger kerises in that book...

Please regard the GC Woolley article, under title "Origin of the Malay Keris". In the second alinea, it said: ..."The surviving specimens of the oldest Majapahit keris -- the Keris Pichit and Keris Majapahit -- seem of all the many patterns of keris the most unlikely to have been evolved from spear blades and the most likely to have been made as talismans rather than for actual use..."

Did Mr Woolley was aware, that there were many-many-many more real "keris majapahit" in the Java Courts? And what about Singasari keris, in the period before Majapahit? And did he know, the relief in Borobudur temple (around 9th century) showed (budha) keris in the hips of a human carving?

And what about ancient inscriptions (epigraphies, prasasti) such as prasasti Humanding (797 Saka or 875 CE), Jurungan (798 Saka or 876 CE), Haliwangbang (798 Saka or 876 CE), Taji (823 Saka or 901 CE), Poh (827 Saka or 905 CE), Rukam (829 Saka or 907 CE), Sangsang (829 Saka or 907 CE), Wakajana (829 Saka or 907 CE), and Sanggaran (850 Saka or 928 CE) that mentioned about keris? And not mentioned, many kakawin (old poems) like Kidung Harsa Wijaya or old important books on Singasari and Majapahit in 13th century like Pararaton, and Babad Tanah Jawi?

And Mr Gardner wrote especially on "keris pichit and keris majapahit" under title "Notes on Two Uncommon Varieties of the Malay Keris" which referring to Gardner's experience (only heard many stories) and only seen eight keris majapahit and three Pichit altogether....

Mr Abu Bakar bin Pawanchee, also wrote a special article under title of "An Unusual Keris Majapahit". The ultra big proportion of writing such small "keris for offering" for "stamping the predicate Majapahit" for such big era or keris making in Java -- that was really astonishing...

And what is the result? The image of "keris majapahit" is only "keris sajen". Yes, the connotation of "majapahit" is only "small sajen", "small offering". As if there were no other kerises during that golden era of keris making...

That is just my peanut opinion, on what I have read...

Ganjawulung
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Old 1st August 2007, 12:51 AM   #59
Alam Shah
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Exclamation Errors in Keris Literature

I think this had strayed from the original topic. It's an interesting point which warrant another topic by itself. I took the liberty to created another thread where we can discuss on the topic.
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Old 1st August 2007, 02:48 AM   #60
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Thanks Shahrial, that's a great idea for a thread.
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