Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th October 2012, 05:10 AM   #61
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

I received pistures of the whole items and it turns out only one of them is a yataghan, the others are small knives, which I believe are modern replicas from India. Still, I would appreciate a translation just to know if these knives actually copy old inscriptions, or if their creators simply apply some jibberish.

I do not believe the Sumatran pedang has an inscription, but I am including it just in case, since it came with the rest of the pictures.

Thank you,
Teodor
Attached Images
     
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th October 2012, 10:07 PM   #62
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Teodor, it seems I missed many posts in this thread. I will try to make it up.
The inscriptions in post # 60 seemed problematic at the first sight, the first one and the maker's seal in the last picture make some sense and are somehow readable, but the second one is jibberish. I think the longer it gets, the more difficult to imitate.




Post # 55)

Amel-i Osman Sahib ü Malik İbrahim Ağa
Ya Hafiyyü'l-eltaf neccina mimma nehaf Sene 1271

Work of Osman, Owner İbrahim Agha
O God, whose bounties are hidden, deliver us from the ones we fear Year 1854/55

Bu bıçağı kıl mübarek ey Kerim la-yezal
Sahibine verme ya Rab ömrü oldukça zeval

O God, the most generous and everlasting, make this knife blessed
Don't let any harm come to the owner of this knife in his life

Post # 56)

Ey gönül bir can içün her cana minnet eyleme
İşret-i dünya içün sultana minnet eyleme

Oh heart do not abase yourself to everyone just for a life
Do not abase yourself to the sultan for the pleasures of mundane life

Amel Elhac Ahmed Sahib Osman Sene 1275
Ya Muhammed kıl şefaat ümmetindir Ahmed

Work of Elhac Ahmed, Owner Osman, Year 1858/59
O Muhammed! Intercede on the day of Judgement on the behalf of Ahmed who is one of your followers


Post # 57)

Ya Muhammed kıl şefaat ümmetindir
Amel-i Şerif Sahib Eyyüb? sene 1241

O Muhammed! Intercede on the day of Judgement on the behalf of...
Work of Şerif, Owner Eyyüb, Year 1825/26


Post # 60

1) Amel-i Yunus 1209 (Work of Yunus, Year 1794/95)


3) Amel-i Muhammed (Work of Muhammed)
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2012, 01:51 AM   #63
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,061
Default

The one with the T-handle is a Zeibek one, IMHO.
http://www.timsah.com/Zeybek-Dance-COKERTME/nTVV0PBAXku
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2012, 07:55 PM   #64
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Zifir,

Thank you very much for the translations. The yataghans in posts 55 & 56 were similar in terms of their decoration, and were made in a span of 4 years, but as we now know thanks to your translation, by different smiths. Also, thank you for cinfirming my suspicions about the inscripions on the modern Indian daggers: it must indeed be difficult for contemporary kotgari artists to copy old inscriptions.

Ariel, good observation on the T-shaped hilt. I have always assumed that it is an Anatolian feature, but now you have linked it more specifically to the southern parts of Asia Minor, facing the Aegean. I am sure that period photos, if any come up, will further confirm this. I am assuming you were referring to the yataghan in post 17, since it is the only one in this thread with this type of hilt.

Many thanks to everyone again,
Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2013, 05:22 PM   #65
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Here is another one for translation, many thanks in advance to Ziir or anyone else who attempt to unlock the meaning of the inscriptions.

Teodor
Attached Images
   
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2013, 05:33 PM   #66
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Better pictures uploaded.
Attached Images
  
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2013, 01:57 PM   #67
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Teodor,
Translation as promised and sorry for the delay.

Best,
Attached Images
  
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2013, 06:23 PM   #68
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Zifir, thank you very much! Interesting inscription. On the second picture, which word means sword, as I do not see kilic anywhere?

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2013, 07:54 PM   #69
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

The Ottoman word is "tiğ-ı teber" which I translated as sword. "Tiğ" or "tegh" is a Persian word for sword, much used by the Ottomans especially in poems. "Teber" or "tabar" is also a Persian word meaning "axe" or "axe shaped". The combination of these two is a curious one, probably an Ottoman literary invention, I translate it literally as "naked sword" but in the text I used sword instead. If there is anyone whose native language is Persian in the forum, I would also like to hear their opinion.

Best,
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st April 2013, 05:20 PM   #70
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Zifir,

Thank you very much for the explanation.

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2013, 05:46 PM   #71
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

I have received pictures of one more yataghan. Can you please help translate the inscriptions?

Thank you,
Teodor
Attached Images
    
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2013, 12:08 AM   #72
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 592
Default

After viewing all of the beautiful yataghans, I apologize in advance for hitching a ride on this thread ;I know that this is a site for ethnographic weapons, but after all this is a yataghan (kinda of).
I was wondering if the gold inscription on the blade has any meaning or is merely put there for the consumption of the Nato troops, making an Enfield bayonet fetch more money.
Attached Images
         
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th July 2013, 08:29 PM   #73
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Zifir,

When you read this thread, can you also translate these Ottoman seals?

Thank you,
Teodor
Attached Images
  
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2013, 11:34 AM   #74
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Hi Teodor,
You can find translations in the attachments.
Regards,
Attached Images
    
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2013, 04:39 PM   #75
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Thank you very much Zifir, you are a priceless asset to this forum.

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th February 2014, 01:08 AM   #76
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

More yataghans and many thanks in advance to anyone, who can help with translating their inscriptions.

Teodor
Attached Images
    
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2014, 10:58 AM   #77
AhmedH
Member
 
AhmedH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Cairo, Egypt.
Posts: 142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
More yataghans and many thanks in advance to anyone, who can help with translating their inscriptions.

Teodor


Salaams Teodor,

In the second photo, the writing is in Turkish, but I could understand from the second line the following inscription:

عمل عثمان صاحب علي

Translation: Made by Othman, the owner is Ali.

Also, the date is 1231 AH...which corresponds to 1815 C.E.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein
AhmedH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2014, 11:04 AM   #78
AhmedH
Member
 
AhmedH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Cairo, Egypt.
Posts: 142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
More yataghans and many thanks in advance to anyone, who can help with translating their inscriptions.

Teodor


As for the third photo:

The inscription reads:

عمل محمود صاحب حسن أغا سنة 1280

Translation: "Made by Mahmoud [for the] owner [who] is Hassan Agha in the year 1280 AH [which corresponds to 1862 or 1863 CE]".

Note: All other inscriptions are not in Arabic, and therefore are NOT Qur'anic.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein
AhmedH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2014, 04:05 PM   #79
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Ahmed,

Thank you very much!

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2014, 08:50 PM   #80
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Turkish part of the inscription - though I am not sure about the last word. And my translation to English is as close as possible to Turkish meaning.
Best,



Quote:
Originally Posted by AhmedH
Salaams Teodor,

In the second photo, the writing is in Turkish, but I could understand from the second line the following inscription:

عمل عثمان صاحب علي

Translation: Made by Othman, the owner is Ali.

Also, the date is 1231 AH...which corresponds to 1815 C.E.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein
Attached Images
 
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2014, 08:55 PM   #81
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Thank you very much Zifir, much appreciated.

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2014, 09:06 PM   #82
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Again the Turkish parts. By the way Teodor, these inscriptions are very interesting, I have not seen similar ones until now. The second one is little bit heavy metallish though


Quote:
Originally Posted by AhmedH
As for the third photo:

The inscription reads:

عمل محمود صاحب حسن أغا سنة 1280

Translation: "Made by Mahmoud [for the] owner [who] is Hassan Agha in the year 1280 AH [which corresponds to 1862 or 1863 CE]".

Note: All other inscriptions are not in Arabic, and therefore are NOT Qur'anic.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein
Attached Images
 
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2014, 10:19 PM   #83
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Thank you Zifir, glad to have finally posted an unusual inscription. Very threatening and bloodthirsty indeed.

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2014, 12:35 AM   #84
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

I just acquired this yataghan. Not much in the way of inscriptions, but would still really appreciate a translation, if possible.

Thank you in advance,
Teodor
Attached Images
  
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2015, 10:00 PM   #85
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Hi,

Amel-i Abdi, Sahib Memiş Ağa / Work of Abdi, Owner Memiş Agha
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2015, 11:26 PM   #86
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Thank you very much Zifir, we are so lucky to have your help with these inscriptions. To the left of the maker's name, there is something that looks like a date, but I cannot make it out - does it make any sense to you? Reading the date may be important, because there was a Memis Agha who rose to prominence in the Trabzon and Surmene area in the end of the 18th century, early 19th century (when most of the yataghans with similar Foca silver hilts are usually dated based on similar examples).

Teodor

Last edited by TVV : 5th January 2015 at 11:46 PM.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2015, 05:04 PM   #87
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 225
Default

Hi Teodor,
I could not see any date there. Are you by any chance referring to the letter "Y/İ" ى at the top of the maker's name? If so, that's just a stylistic writing of the name ABDİ with (Y/İ) at the top.

Best,
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2015, 08:47 PM   #88
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zifir
Hi Teodor,
I could not see any date there. Are you by any chance referring to the letter "Y/İ" ى at the top of the maker's name? If so, that's just a stylistic writing of the name ABDİ with (Y/İ) at the top.

Best,


Thank you Zifir, yes, this is exactly what I was confusing with a date. Still, Memish Agha is at least in my experience an uncommon name and there is a good chance that this yataghan may have indeed been made for Memish Agha from Rize, who appears to have led a small unsuccessful uprising around Trabzon in 1814-1817.

Regards,
Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2015, 02:12 AM   #89
Sancar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 73
Default

Memiş is just a short form for Mehmet (kinda like Charles-Charlie or Francis-Frank) and it is quite common in rural Anatolia.
Sancar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2015, 04:23 PM   #90
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,148
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancar
Memiş is just a short form for Mehmet (kinda like Charles-Charlie or Francis-Frank) and it is quite common in rural Anatolia.


Thanks for the clarification,

Teodor
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:24 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.