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Old 18th March 2009, 10:38 PM   #1
cornelistromp
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Default unknown naski inscripted malchus blade?

intersting malchus blade with some kind of naski arab inscription.
does somebody know what it means?

The reverse side is definitely a group of nine numbers?!?!

257? 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
257? 2583 2577

Not sure what that means. Perhaps an ancient code of some sorts.


can somebody help me with this puzle? Alexandria??? 13-14thC???
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Old 19th March 2009, 08:43 PM   #2
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Hi Cornelis?
Not sure what the references to Malchus, Biblical or historical, and Naski are. The blade looks S.E.Asian, big area I admit, the numbers appear to be a 'magic square' and the lettering Arabic script. Some or all of the aforementioned may be incorrect, I expect the experienced members will give a more definitive answer if indeed there be one.
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 19th March 2009, 10:28 PM   #3
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Hello Cornelistromp,
First of all I'd like to welcome you here, and thank you for your great response on the Dutch knife!

The blade here appears to be an Arab blade, probably of 18th-19th century. Excellent note by Norman on the 'magic squares', which were talismanic groupings in numbers or letters found on Islamic swords usually at or near the forte of the blade.
There seems to be distinct variation in the numerology, as well as the calligraphy, of which nasta'liq is one. This script is a Persian form, which would have been highly favored in Arabia. I am no linquist nor particularly knowledgable on these weapons, but I do know these talismanic squares are typically termed 'Bedouh'. The meaning of the term is inclear, but naturally the inclination toward the Bedouin tribes of Arabia is tempting.

The Ottomans occuped Arabia and during these times, the nasta'liq used in writing Ottoman Turkish was termed 'Talik'. There was also Diwani script developed for writing Ottoman Turkish during about 16-17th c.

I think this should be posted on the Ethnographic Forum, where the true experts on these swords reside, and I'm not sure how this is transferred over, but I wanted to let you know where it is being moved for better response.

Fascinating blade though!!!

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 21st March 2009, 03:19 AM   #4
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After discovering this blade posted on another forum, I realized that I did not scroll far enough to the left, revealing the distinctly profiled tip on this blade.
Now having the 'big picture' it would appear that this is not the double fullered sabre blade I had anticipated, and likely does have possible Indonesian or SE Asian origins, but probably of the period I mentioned.

It should be noted that much of Indonesian regions are predominantly Muslim, with profound history that includes the Arab trade routes. The use of these type blade markings are found accordingly, and the 'magic square' comments apply as well.

I find the 'malchus' description most curious, and can only imagine it must be used in the Biblical parlance, which again, Norman has most astutely noted, and describes the event described in the Gospels where a sword is used in severing the ear of an individual named Malchus. Although I am not aware of any sword type called by this name, I am sure it has been used in literary metaphor.

Interesting note on Alexandria as well, as there were a number of European swords captured in the crusades (clearly much before this blade) and taken as trophies to the arsenal at Alexandria. A number of these were marked in Arabic calligraphy on the blades noting them as such, and an article describing them was written in Israel in 1962 (I am not near my notes and cannot recall offhand the cite), but I do not think the squares were used. Again, would have to review the notes.
Well placed perspective though ,noting those characteristics!

Best regards,
Jim

P.S. Beautifully done Norman!!! imagine my chagrin!, excellent assessments by you on all counts. I didnt realize that much of my screen was cut off.....after all ...my PC is a Fisher-Price!!!
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Old 21st March 2009, 02:39 PM   #5
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thank you all for the expert-comments,I noticed with pleasure that the level of knowledge in arms and armour is very high.
It is very convenient that I can consult this forum whenever Iam stuck on a case which more then once happens.

Re: origin
it is obvious that this type of blade has an oriental origin however Indonesian origin is not very likely because the weapons of this archipel don't have western types of ricasso like this blade has.
At the moment a friend of me is working on the translation and dating of the Naskhi script (Naskhi or close relative). Hope that the outcome will clearify more/all.

Re:dating
personally I think it can be older then 17thC or 18thC
- there was a "flint hard" layer of Goethite (feOoh) covering the blade.
This (evidence) has been recenlty removed for 90%.
such a layer is often found on medieval waterfinds. this proces of rust interacting with the chemical constituents of the surrounding mud ,is not possible in 200 or 300 years.
- the Naskhi script evolved from 1100ad in innumerable varieties and styles.
the first indication is that this style can be dated before 1600 but is under investigation at the moment. I hope the script will give more outcome.

Re: Malchus sword classification
Heribert Seitz Author of Blankwaffen
(one of the most important publications about the developements of types
of arms in Europe till 1600.) has classified "single edged swords" from the group MALCHUS-FALCHION-STORTA into two types in 1964;

MALCHUS type1 oriental origin (fa the Thorpe Falchion, Oakeshott 1960)

MALCHUS type2 north-west european Origin.(fa Conyers falchion)

(H.Seitz Blankwaffen p187-194. 1965)
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Old 21st March 2009, 03:37 PM   #6
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Thank you so much for revealing all of this extremely helpful data Cornelistromp! It would appear that you are quite knowledgable as well. We often have 'translation' queries on the Ethnographic Forum, which is our main forum, and which is the forum I had earlier suggested. Obviously, here on the European Forum, the few such queries wouldn't usually include Arabic dialects (with the exception probably of the Alexandria swords ).

It is times like these when I realize how important it is to have diverse and comprehensive resources in an arms library! The Seitz reference is outstanding as I recall, but presently do not have access to it, so I am grateful for the categorization you refer to using the term 'malchus'. I am of course familiar with the Conyers and Thorpe falchion references, which indeed present entirely different potential for this blades identification.

I feel as though I've been skipping up and down the garden path, wondering what was rustling in the bushes, but now that I can see it, it is less of a puzzle.....but obviously not that much less! At least I know better where to look though.

Excellent point on the heavy ricasso, and that remains a sound observation. Since you have referenced Goethite factor, it begs the question...was this an archaeological find, and if so, obviously where in location. If it was in a location situated in regions associated with any of the crusades, than the placement here with the European Forum seems well warranted, and the focus on this blade becomes increasingly intriguing.

I'll have to learn more on the Nashki script, which I have heard of, but know little about and maybe I can implore some of our linguists to take a look at this. Perhaps they might not only translate, but add more on the use of this type script.

I also am determined to learn more on the use of the term 'malchus' as used by Seitz in his classification of falchions. It seems that it is a term not especially widely used as it does not readily appear in most references, but really does have my curiosity going!

I am more than delighted that this blade seems to be far more than my original assessment, and regret not having withheld same until I had more thoroughly reviewed the illustrations. Had I realized the complexity implied, I would have definitely looked further into available resources for information.

Thank you much for sharing this fascinating blade here, and giving us the opportunity not only to discuss, but learn from this interesting piece.

All the very best,
Jim
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Old 21st March 2009, 04:10 PM   #7
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Hi,
I thought the 'Thorpe Falchion' was an Eastern European influenced blade rather than what I understand as 'oriental', perhaps I'm grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The blade profile at the tip is confusing but I still don't see it as a 'classic' Falchion type although they were many and varied also it could have been altered over the years by corrosion loss and/or reshaping. The part where blade and tang meet appear as cast rather than hammered but again this could be corrosion or a 'welded' tang. Whatever it is it is intriguing and I look forward to further discussion. An interesting blade Cornelis.
My Regards,
Norman.

Last edited by Norman McCormick : 21st March 2009 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 22nd March 2009, 03:11 AM   #8
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Default Another image please

Hi guys,

Cornelis could you please provide a brighter image of the business end of the blade, I have a couple of thoughts I'd like to throw around after more images could be provided.

thanks

Gav
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Old 22nd March 2009, 05:57 AM   #9
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Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?
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Old 22nd March 2009, 09:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. McCormack
Somebody correct me here, because to me this plainly looks like a mandau or other parang blade, 19th century. Am I crazy?


Dear sir,

I will place some better pictures and then you all can shoot at it :-)

Re: Mandau
If you refering to the swords from Borneo Mandau(langgi tinggan,pasir) , baieng, duku, malab, malat and Parang Ilang.
the blades look similar but they all have one main (different) characteristic: one side is ball shaped and the other side hollow shaped. also they don't have ricasso's of this type.


maybe I follow the total wrong track so Im looking forward to your replies/evidence posted, on the the pictures.

best regards from Holland
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Old 23rd March 2009, 06:42 PM   #11
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Hi Cornelis,
Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc.
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 08:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Hi Cornelis,
Is there any evidence of how the tang was affixed to a hilt e.g. peened, 'glued' etc.
My Regards,
Norman.

HI Norman,

no unfortunately it is not possible to tell.
but the tang goes from 7mm to 4mm thickness.

best regards
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Old 24th March 2009, 09:26 PM   #13
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Hi Cornelis,
There are some odd things that I don't quite understand about this blade, although having said that I am far from qualified regarding blade technology. The blade to my mind appears to have been cast rather than forged and I'm sure I can see some regular tool marks that seem more modern. I hope that we can find some answers and to that end may I suggest you put the photo of the Arabic script on the Ethnographic Forum asking for a translation, this may go some way to resolving the mystery.
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 25th March 2009, 05:26 AM   #14
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I think the cast appearance you are seeing is a result of firescale. Makes me think this blade was in a fire. ---or was just never finished much after heat treat
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Old 25th March 2009, 08:05 AM   #15
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thanks for your replies,

I don't think the blade has been cast , you can see hammertraces at the tang. my opinion is also that this balde has been in a fire, but should then the small gold inlays ,at the beginning and top of the higher fuller, not have been melted away?

I hope the translation can help out.

Best regards
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Old 25th March 2009, 08:17 PM   #16
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It seems to me there is yet another possibility that may be worth at least considering for discussion. The profile of this blade tip, and the parallel fullers seem to suggest the general appearance of the 'scramasax' with its downward slope tip. This one seems to have lost a bit of the tip. The copper inlaid holes seem consistant with this practice in swords of medieval period, though the outlined dot motif I cannot say is common or well known.

The scramasax type weapons (in sword size) though I dont believe had the heavy forte, but again inviting other observations.Obviously not a Muslim sword form, but the inscription might suggest a captured weapon, and perhaps this item might be exactly in the situation suggested initially by Cornelistromp.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 27th March 2009, 05:29 AM   #17
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I keep returning to this most intriguing sword blade, and the more I look at it, the more puzzling it seems.
The blade shape is truly unusual, and though I know the scramasax is of course too early (6th-10th c.) it is interesting that this blade tip has the similar downward slope tip, and the double fuller seen on a number of these. These weapons ranged from knives to sword length, but certainly do not seem this long, its the profile of the blade that this recalls. It would be most interesting to know more on where this blade was found.

Even more of a conundrum is the epigraphy concerning the inscriptions on the faces of the forte. While the magic square reference seems applicable, at least on one side, these various characters or symbols seem to correspond to various alphabets and numeral systems. While there do seem to be Arabic figures, some of the symbols resemble those found in alphabets from South Arabian to Berber in just comparing them. The 'square' seems comprised of various symbols of this sort rather than Arabic calligraphy. On the reverse side however, there appears some markings that do resemble Arabic.
Again, I am far from a linguist, so these are entirely lay observations.

Very much looking forward to more on this!

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 8th March 2012, 04:41 PM   #18
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Here is a discussion from a while ago on the 'malchus' sword.....it didnt get far either but was interesting.
Did anybody notice the gold metal filled dots?
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Old 8th March 2012, 05:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
intersting malchus blade with some kind of naski arab inscription.
does somebody know what it means?

The reverse side is definitely a group of nine numbers?!?!

257? 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
257? 2583 2577

Not sure what that means. Perhaps an ancient code of some sorts.


can somebody help me with this puzle? Alexandria??? 13-14thC???



Salaams cornelistromp ~ The numbers as stated are a talismanic sort of "rune" or spell protecting the sword owner from various Djinns and other demons. They probably reveal a sequence and code typical in Arabian talismanic beliefs... etc. Sometimes all you see is a set of criss crossing rectangles with no letters or numbers though in this case it is very clear and precise.
For Malchus and Falchion there is a brilliant thread by Swordfish on this Forum at The Falchion or Malchus the rarest medieval sword which is a must see for comparisons. It needs a bump ! Standby !!!
The dots are intriguing and they seem to have an eyebrow strike above .... This is a most peculiar backblade that seems to say far east with islamic detail and at the same time Malchus possibly crusader weapon? Any clues please where it was discovered or sourced could point us in a certain direction ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 8th March 2012, 06:51 PM   #20
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HI Ibrahiim al Balooshi,

Unfortunately I do not know where the sword has been found, but this blade has always intrigued me, inlaid with gold dots and strange naskhi script with a deep meaning.
The blade has been severly cleaned but there are still remnants of flint hard goethide. This layer of goethide proofs that it must have been a waterfound but also that it must be old, I think it is 14thC.

at another forum, sorry , somebody of Baghrain made out following;
Originally Posted by e.a.Zainal

Numbers are

2579 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
2579 2583 2577

i think it's like a magical numbers that help the user for some think like a magic script

اللهم لاذة الله
عين سبيق ودت الله

Oh God that Take you to the God
An eye faster than Kindness of God

that what i understand from the Writing
but the Second line I'm not sour about it

it may my translatiuon is meaning defrint that what it mean becuse the Scipt Mening is very deep



The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword is a beautiful thread, there is a illustration posted with apparently a similar dot inlay.

best,
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Old 9th March 2012, 03:08 AM   #21
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Thanks very much Jasper for adding that information ! I was puzzled why the thread ended so abruptly if I recall correctly, but it was three years ago and I hadn't thought of it until I saw the great new 'malchus' thread.
Ibrahiim, that you so much for the excellent suggestions on these talismanic 'runes' which seem to be in accord with the 'beduh' type squares on many Islamic swords.

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 9th March 2012, 03:27 PM   #22
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Imho, I think this is a south east asian item. The Arabic on it reminds me of an indonesian sword I translated for Gene a while ago..

nothing conclusive though
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Old 9th March 2012, 05:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
HI Ibrahiim al Balooshi,

Unfortunately I do not know where the sword has been found, but this blade has always intrigued me, inlaid with gold dots and strange naskhi script with a deep meaning.
The blade has been severly cleaned but there are still remnants of flint hard goethide. This layer of goethide proofs that it must have been a waterfound but also that it must be old, I think it is 14thC.

at another forum, sorry , somebody of Baghrain made out following;
Originally Posted by e.a.Zainal

Numbers are

2579 2572 2582
2581 2578 2576
2579 2583 2577

i think it's like a magical numbers that help the user for some think like a magic script

اللهم لاذة الله
عين سبيق ودت الله

Oh God that Take you to the God
An eye faster than Kindness of God

that what i understand from the Writing
but the Second line I'm not sour about it

it may my translatiuon is meaning defrint that what it mean becuse the Scipt Mening is very deep



The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword is a beautiful thread, there is a illustration posted with apparently a similar dot inlay.

best,


Salaams Cornelistromp ~ great detail and thanks again ~ And regards Jim and Im sure this one will have the lights burning bright at your end far into the night... A brilliant conundrum ! I think the dots on the blade may be a strong indicator as to origin unless anyone has evidence of this style of decoration on far eastern blades...? I see the Malchus in this blade... For students of European blades the Falchion and Malchus have to be the most interesting start point on study leading through from the Medieaval to the modern era. What is astonishing is the quality of illuminated detail in manuscript form ... If this is a Malchus what is the detective work on the arabic inscriptions and as I dive into my library looking for Heraldic symbols et al it is a very interesting subject worthy of university study...I wish I had the resources as Professor Jim has.
I am endebted to corneilstromp for the exacting scientific detail and chemical analysis on the blade surface which is a totally new area to me. Thank you !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 9th March 2012, 05:33 PM   #24
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Old 9th March 2012, 10:22 PM   #25
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Sorry, it looks exactly like a mandau blade to me. I had the chance of holding dozens of them at Oriental-Arms. The golden dot work is typical and the scale pattern appears to be of severe thermic damage.
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Old 10th March 2012, 10:53 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadaxe
Sorry, it looks exactly like a mandau blade to me. I had the chance of holding dozens of them at Oriental-Arms. The golden dot work is typical and the scale pattern appears to be of severe thermic damage.


yes on behalf of the outline, my first impression was also directed towards the dayak head hunter swords.
also because some of them have inlays with larger dots or stars.(kalimantan)

of this track, I passed off, I mean
can you please post a picture of a Mandau like the blade under discussion, with a western type of ricasso and with double fullers?

best,
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Old 10th March 2012, 04:21 PM   #27
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Well, since no two mandaus are exactly alike it is hard to find an exact twin. Off my field, I do not have access to a vast image bank of indonesian arms. It appears a double fullered mandau is quite a rarity and I understand this blade may look european. Double fuller mandau with lesser pronounced ricasso: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2344
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Old 10th March 2012, 05:36 PM   #28
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I see what you mean, thanks for the link.
even though the differences are not so great at first glance, the differences in blade geometry are larger. This is truly oriental sword blade (south east asian) and the blade under discussion does look more western. (middle eastern)
Another very oriental looking Malchus was exhibited in the GNM in Nuremberg. it has been described as german 15thC.

I am not yet convinced but leave all options open, maybe there will be more clarity.

best,
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Old 10th March 2012, 06:34 PM   #29
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I'm sorry, but this is pretty clearly a SEA blade from the last 1-200 years. It is a very nice blade. But not early, not middle eastern.
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Old 11th March 2012, 11:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. McCormack
I'm sorry, but this is pretty clearly a SEA blade from the last 1-200 years. It is a very nice blade. But not early, not middle eastern.


thank you for the pictures, I am familiar with the Mandau and its decoration.
it looks a little different though. Do you happen to have also examples of mandau blades with Naskhi inscription and magic squares that can be placed.

thanks+regards
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