Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 5th July 2010, 10:31 AM   #1
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default Krisses Jalak Buda

Dear friends,
In the very interesting book "Keris untuk Dunia" published on the occasion of the "Keris for the World 2010" exhibition in Jakarta, there are a number of pictures of krisses Jalak Buda. They are all are classified from tangguh Singasari and most of them are called Keris Jalak Sangu Tumpeng. Some of them look very old but others have visible pamor so they don't seem to date from the same period. What do you think about the assigned tangguh and the correct name of these krisses?
Sorry, I can't copy any pictures from the book because of the copyright, but I attach the pictures of the 2 Krisses Jalak Buda from my collection for your reference.
Best regards
Jean
Attached Images
  
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 02:37 AM   #2
Paul Duffy
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 27
Default

Jean,
This seems to be a very interesting exhibition in Jakarta.I probably won't be able to get to it,but do you know if the book you mentioned,"Keris untuk Dunia' is available on the internet?
Paul Duffy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 06:19 AM   #3
rasjid
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Jakarta - Indonesia
Posts: 110
Default

Hi Paul,

You can contact this email: sentosakeris@yahoo.com (Mr Toni Junus) to see if they still have (only printed 1000copies) and I believe after the exhibition only less than 200 copies left. Its a big book with more than >300pages of A4 size kerises.

Good luck.

rasjid
rasjid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 12:05 PM   #4
Greybeard
Member
 
Greybeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 124
Default

Dear Jean,

I first thought that I cannot contribute to your thread, but now I notice one detail with the first keris you post that makes me wonder: Do I see a turned over mendak or is it a metuk, permanently fixed to the pesi (as seen on tombak)?

Best regards,

Heinz
Greybeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 12:29 PM   #5
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Dear friends,
My question seems to raise some interest from the number of viewers but no response so I will try to stimulate you a bit:
AFAIK these krisses Budha are supposed to be the oldest type of kris and some sources say that they may have originated in Central Java around the 9th or 10th century AD. So why are they classified from a 13th century short-lived period in East Java? If they originated in East Java and not Centre Java, why during the Singosari period and not the earlier kingdoms of Kahuripan (11th century), or Kediri and Jenggala (11th and 12th century)? According to the legend of Ken Arok and Empu Gandring, the krisses made during the Singosari period were much more elaborate than the krisses Budha? Also the features of the blades from tangguh Singosari described in the EK for instance do not match at all with the krisses Budha?
Pak Ganja, your kris shown in page174 of the book is the only one of this kind called keris Budho but the tangguh is specified as Budho - Singosari, what does it mean?

Regarding the book "Keris untuk Dunia", it was for sale on Ebay by Bakoelkeris (Suryono) few days ago but no longer, you may contact him to investigate if he still has or cand get some copies.
Best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 01:46 PM   #6
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybeard
Dear Jean,

I first thought that I cannot contribute to your thread, but now I notice one detail with the first keris you post that makes me wonder: Do I see a turned over mendak or is it a metuk, permanently fixed to the pesi (as seen on tombak)?

Best regards,

Heinz



Dear Heinz,
Both krisses are fitted with an integrated methuk (as it should be). The top one has some rust embedded in it but of course I did not do anything to it except applying anti-rust oil for future conservation.
Best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 04:10 AM   #7
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,884
Default

Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris.

As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation.

When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention.

To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 07:47 AM   #8
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris.

As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation.

When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention.

To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.



Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your reply which perfectly meets my expectations and reinforces my doubts. In a few lines you said it all!
My 2 pieces are typical specimens of this type of intermediate krisses, and I agree that they cannot be accurately dated, and that these pieces are probably from different periods as some of them have pamor for instance. Have you any picture of an original keris Budho to show us?
Regarding the judgement about the tangguh matter I fully agree with your cautious statement, personally I follow the intermediate (third) way and will use it in my new book.
Thank you very much again and best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 10:22 AM   #9
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,884
Default

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

If I'm in Jawa with gentlemen who are very traditional followers of Javanese culture and philosophy, I agree with everything that is said --- it is not my place to to attempt to lecture people on their own culture.

Shut up. Listen. Learn.

If I am with people who are convinced that they already know all there is to be known, I do the same thing:-

Shut up. Listen. Learn -- or perhaps be mildly amused.

If I am with gentlemen who can take a calm, balanced, and logical view of the world and all things in it, I am prepared to adopt the third way and attempt to justify my acceptance of this approach.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 12:34 PM   #10
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.


Dear Alan,
You are a very wise man, I also try to adopt this approach but am less "Javanesed" than you so I can't help to give my careful opinion sometimes with people whom I know well ....
I am sure that all the forumites will be very interested to see the pictures of your keris Budho as this is not a common occurrence!
Thank you again and best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 03:50 PM   #11
Mick
Member
 
Mick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orlando
Posts: 104
Default

Jean

Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one.
Attached Images
  
Mick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 06:18 PM   #12
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
Jean

Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one.


Hello Mick,
Thanks, your piece is shorter and sturdier than mine, but it looks "processed" indeed. Some of the pieces included in the book "Keris untuk Dunia" also have pamor, but are still classified as from tangguh Singosari....
Best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 12:15 AM   #13
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,884
Default

Here is an image of a genuine keris budho.

Mick's image also gives a good impression of what they look like. This example is just under 12" long from blade tip to pesi tip.

However, it is necessary to allow a reasonable degree of latitude in assessing whether a blade is genuinely a KB or not.

Erosion can alter the outline of the blade.

Some blades display quite refined features, others are basic.

Based upon my personal observations, I am not yet prepared to dismiss all apparently archaic blades that show some evidence of pamor, as forgeries, false, or creations designed to decieve. Yes, such creations do exist, but the pamor effect can be found in other forms of archaic blade that are not keris blades. Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.

Genuinely archaic keris budho also occur in bronze.
Attached Images
 
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 08:27 AM   #14
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Here is an image of a genuine keris budho.

Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.



Dear Alan,
Thank you for the picture of the genuine KB, a precious reference for us! Any personal opinion about when and where these krisses were first produced?
I share your opinion that these krisses may have continued to be made into the 16-17th centuries, and this could explain why some pieces have pamor or are in better condition than the original ones but without being recent fake pieces?
Best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 10:53 AM   #15
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,884
Default

The available evidence seems to indicate that a dagger with the salient features of a keris budho blade was in existence during the Early Classical Period in Central Jawa, that is, prior to approximately 1000AD.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2010, 01:02 PM   #16
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
The available evidence seems to indicate that a dagger with the salient features of a keris budho blade was in existence during the Early Classical Period in Central Jawa, that is, prior to approximately 1000AD.


Dear Alan,
Thank you and best regards
Jean
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2010, 04:11 AM   #17
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

G'day Alan,

Based on my very limited contact with keris budho (which may all well be replicas), I noticed that they all have this seriously eroded look, as if they were buried underground for a long time. Are keris budhos generally excavated? None passed down as family heirlooms?
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2010, 04:54 AM   #18
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,884
Default

Yes, this is my understanding, Kai Wee.

I have been present on two occasions when farmers brought badly corroded keris budho to a dealer for sale.

I have also seen, handled, and bought from a trove of archaic tools and weapons (?) that had been found during farming activity. Many of the pieces I bought from this trove were far too damaged by corrosion to be of any possible use, so they were welded and forged into a single piece that will be made into a keris budho.

In my experience, archaic and talismanic keris can be passed on as an inheritance (warisan), but not as a family keris (pusaka).

In Bahasa Indonesia "pusaka" can be understood as "heirloom" , but in Javanese the meaning goes much further than this, and depending upon the context it can be understood as "revered object", "inheritance", "ricefield", and it has powers atached to it that make it a symbol of authority and validation, for example, in Javanese history a number of instances can be found where possession of the royal pusakas was interpreted as God's endorsement of the holder of those pusakas as the rightful heir to the throne :- if God did not agree with him being in possession, God would not permit him to retain the pusakas.

The keris budho form originates too far back in time to be relevant within the context of family pusaka.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2010, 01:03 PM   #19
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

Thanks for the additional contextual information, Alan. That was helpful.
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2010, 05:37 PM   #20
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 971
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Pak Ganja, your kris shown in page174 of the book is the only one of this kind called keris Budho but the tangguh is specified as Budho - Singosari, what does it mean?

Dear Jean,
The classification 'Singasari" is not from me, but from book curator's opinion. And these images below, are from the same jalak buda blade as published in the KFTW book. I have seen quite a lot of "buda" tipe of jalak dhapur. But the condition of this blade is not as corrosive as usually I've seen..

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
      
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2012, 02:16 PM   #21
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.


Here are pictures of an islamic era Keris Jalak Budho. They were taken by one of the most important early photographers in Dutch East Indies, Isidore van Kinsbergen, in 1863/1864. The description says "A kris with arabic inscription (steel and gold) from Garut" (West Java). It seems to have a polished surface, like many keris in old european collections.There is also a picture of lanceheads, which probably look recent (for 1863), which means they were still produced in such forms at this time.

High resolution pictures are to be find here:

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/...1:1403-3790-37B

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/...ount=1&wst=kris

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/...&wst=lanspunten

You really can go into the details blowing them up.
Attached Images
   
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2012, 04:32 PM   #22
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,340
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Duffy
Jean,
This seems to be a very interesting exhibition in Jakarta.I probably won't be able to get to it,but do you know if the book you mentioned,"Keris untuk Dunia' is available on the internet?


Hello Paul,

sometimes i see it listed by ebay!

Regards,

Detlef

Uups, don't have seen that it is an old thread!

Last edited by Sajen : 21st June 2012 at 04:45 PM.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2012, 08:51 PM   #23
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,340
Default

What do you think about this one?
Attached Images
      
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2012, 02:11 PM   #24
tunggulametung
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 238
Default

Can't answer the question but

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
Here are pictures of an islamic era Keris Jalak Budho....
similar piece from link
Attached Images
 
tunggulametung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2012, 08:39 PM   #25
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 881
Default

Tunggulametung, thank you very much for the interesting picture. I have darkened it a little bit to see better the details. It comes from Pagerrujung, half way between Semarang and Pekalongan, Central Java.
Attached Images
 
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 02:12 AM   #26
tunggulametung
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
...It comes from Pagerrujung, half way between Semarang and Pekalongan, Central Java.
Gustav, I think it is belong to Pagaruyung palace of West Sumatra, if I remember correctly there's another version of the keris photo taken in a ceremony but I can't find it.

I attach another similar example below
Attached Images
 
tunggulametung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 03:07 AM   #27
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Rahiangtang Taroem: 'Sama Marantaw Badjaoe'
Posts: 355
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
Here are pictures of an islamic era Keris Jalak Budho. They were taken by one of the most important early photographers in Dutch East Indies, Isidore van Kinsbergen, in 1863/1864. The description says "A kris with arabic inscription (steel and gold) from Garut" (West Java)......

Hullo everybody,
Gustav, just a passing comment:
I seem to immediately recognise the first picture as part of my family's heirloom collection,which are still looked after in our Ciburuy, Garut compound.
As for the keris, it very much reminds me of another heirloom looked after at our Cinunuk, Garut compund. If the inscription in Arabic reads (Latinized): "Laa Iqroha Fiddien", then I am sure of it.
Best,

Last edited by Amuk Murugul : 23rd June 2012 at 04:07 AM.
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 04:42 AM   #28
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 330
Default

Hi Amuk,

Here's the close-up of that particular blade. I'm not sure if it says La Iqraha Fiddin on the blade..
Attached Images
 
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 07:39 PM   #29
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunggulametung
Gustav, I think it is belong to Pagaruyung palace of West Sumatra, if I remember correctly there's another version of the keris photo taken in a ceremony but I can't find it.

I attach another similar example below


Tunggulametung, the description from Tropenmuseum says Java Tengah. Thank you very much for the other picture!

http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/De...spx?ccid=322401

There is also a picture of the other side of the blade:
Attached Images
 
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2012, 07:49 PM   #30
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo everybody,
Gustav, just a passing comment:
I seem to immediately recognise the first picture as part of my family's heirloom collection,which are still looked after in our Ciburuy, Garut compound.
As for the keris, it very much reminds me of another heirloom looked after at our Cinunuk, Garut compund. If the inscription in Arabic reads (Latinized): "Laa Iqroha Fiddien", then I am sure of it.
Best,


Amuk Murugul, may I ask you a question regarding the heirloom of your family please:

is it passed on as Warisan (inheritance), or is it a Pusaka?
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:53 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.