17th century European sword - Looking for assistance with blade marks

RSWORD · 7th August 2021, 09:44 PM

This 17th century sword has a deep stamped marking I am looking for assistance. Looks like there is a well worn partial crown marking above the stamp and then the letters S A H A G O N in the fullers and then the running wolf mark. Any other information about this sword would be appreciated.

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2021, 05:42 AM

Rick, this walloon type sword has of course the typical Solingen running wolf and SAHAGON but at the forte is what appears to be the Amsterdam town mark which was three 'X's with a crown. It seems like there were shops with Solingen workers in Dutch regions and most of the exports out of Solingen were out of Amsterdam and Rotterdam ports.,
I think the familiar VOC swords were assembled in these shops.

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2021, 07:16 AM

Waloon sword for sure and from Amsterdam but the blade...
Crowned head?!
Wundes?!
Weyersberg?!

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 05:06 PM

The triple X mark was the control number for Amsterdam, one of the six chambers of the VOC (the others Rotterdam, Middelburg, Hoorn, Enkhrizen, Delft). The Dutch EIC (VOC) device was typically on blades for this famed firm, with typically the first letter of the chamber placed above the VOC (except Rotterdam where the R was below).
The letter Z stood for Zeeland, colonial province(s); the letter G for Galle (Ceylon).

On markings of the XXX control number for Amsterdam, sometimes these are topped by an A, but often a crown was used.

While this appears to be a crowned shield suggesting the konigskopf (Kings head) of Wundes it seems a bit out of character, but the distinct crown remains, perhaps a variant element of the 'control' figure?

M ELEY · 14th August 2021, 01:31 AM

The king's head stamp is weak and hard to make out. It does resemble (slightly) the Weyersburg king head marking, which looks quite different than that of the earlier Wundes king's head marks. It can't be Weyersburg, however, because it would have three heads in a row and Weyersburg didn't take over the king's head mark from the old Wundes firm until after 1760-70, while this blade is clearly mid/late 17th, right?

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2021, 05:21 PM

Good notes on the Wundes (later Weyersberg) use of the kings head markings which seem to have had variations of course. As also noted, this blade seem to be from first half 17th c. and from Solingen, as per the running wolf and SAHAGOM markings.
The punzone however is so degraded that the only discernible element is the crown, which seems to be a triple point (as used in Spanish marks). It is hard to say what distinctive features are within the cartouche, but it does not seem to be a head or face as with kings heads.
Spanish and other punzones often use shield shape containing whatever elements favored by the user, and the crown tops the shield.

The punzone is positioned centrally at the forte which is correct for markings of maker on blade.
The triple X mark is as mentioned the 'control' mark of Amsterdam, and while the 'X's are consistent, sometimes an 'A' is atop the triple X cartouche, in some cases a crown. The variation cases are unclear, but in this one, the X cartouche is diagonal and without character over it.

While we cannot determine maker by the indiscernible punzone, this is clearly a Solingen product by the wolf and spurious SAHAGOM, and we may assume the punzone may be also spurious Spanish one, as often practice in German centers.

cornelistromp · 15th August 2021, 09:45 AM

These walloon swords were produced under contract from amsterdam arms dealers in solingen. In solingen an amsterdam mark was already smashed into the blade, this is the vague mark; a shield with three crosses under a royal crown. (instead of the imperial crown).
Sometimes the initials of the solingen smith were also struck into the blade. thus it is known that these swords were produced in solingen.

After the weapons arrived in Amsterdam they were inspected and after aproval an Amsterdam proof mark is stamped over the old mark. (This is the clear mark with the three crosses.)

see attachment of the marks from a walloon sword from the visser collection: HV-693 p150 visser cat part3, JP puype.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2021, 05:56 PM

As they say in Texas, 'well! there ya have it!'!!!
Thank you SO much Jasper!!!
I guess now we can stop chasin' them zebras!

Which book is this from?

cornelistromp · 16th August 2021, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As they say in Texas, 'well! there ya have it!'!!!
Thank you SO much Jasper!!!
I guess now we can stop chasin' them zebras!

Which book is this from?

Hi Jim, it's mentioned in the post, from the visser collection catalogue: HV-693 page 150 visser cat part-3, author JP puype.
Visser had 8-9 ( I don't recall) walloon swords, they are all described in the above Cat.

btw if you see the marks and the inscription x SAHAGVM x of the visser sword hv-693 , are they likely to come from the same workshop or delivery.

best, Jasper

RSWORD · 16th August 2021, 08:39 PM

Thanks everyone for the information. All very helpful.

7th August 2021, 09:44 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	17th century European sword - Looking for assistance with blade marks This 17th century sword has a deep stamped marking I am looking for assistance. Looks like there is a well worn partial crown marking above the stamp and then the letters S A H A G O N in the fullers and then the running wolf mark. Any other information about this sword would be appreciated. Attached Images

8th August 2021, 07:16 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,875	Waloon sword for sure and from Amsterdam but the blade... Crowned head?! Wundes?! Weyersberg?! Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 8th August 2021 at 07:58 AM.

15th August 2021, 09:45 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	These walloon swords were produced under contract from amsterdam arms dealers in solingen. In solingen an amsterdam mark was already smashed into the blade, this is the vague mark; a shield with three crosses under a royal crown. (instead of the imperial crown). Sometimes the initials of the solingen smith were also struck into the blade. thus it is known that these swords were produced in solingen. After the weapons arrived in Amsterdam they were inspected and after aproval an Amsterdam proof mark is stamped over the old mark. (This is the clear mark with the three crosses.) see attachment of the marks from a walloon sword from the visser collection: HV-693 p150 visser cat part3, JP puype. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 15th August 2021 at 09:57 AM.

8th August 2021, 05:42 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,759	Rick, this walloon type sword has of course the typical Solingen running wolf and SAHAGON but at the forte is what appears to be the Amsterdam town mark which was three 'X's with a crown. It seems like there were shops with Solingen workers in Dutch regions and most of the exports out of Solingen were out of Amsterdam and Rotterdam ports., I think the familiar VOC swords were assembled in these shops.

13th August 2021, 05:06 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,759	The triple X mark was the control number for Amsterdam, one of the six chambers of the VOC (the others Rotterdam, Middelburg, Hoorn, Enkhrizen, Delft). The Dutch EIC (VOC) device was typically on blades for this famed firm, with typically the first letter of the chamber placed above the VOC (except Rotterdam where the R was below). The letter Z stood for Zeeland, colonial province(s); the letter G for Galle (Ceylon). On markings of the XXX control number for Amsterdam, sometimes these are topped by an A, but often a crown was used. While this appears to be a crowned shield suggesting the konigskopf (Kings head) of Wundes it seems a bit out of character, but the distinct crown remains, perhaps a variant element of the 'control' figure?

14th August 2021, 01:31 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	The king's head stamp is weak and hard to make out. It does resemble (slightly) the Weyersburg king head marking, which looks quite different than that of the earlier Wundes king's head marks. It can't be Weyersburg, however, because it would have three heads in a row and Weyersburg didn't take over the king's head mark from the old Wundes firm until after 1760-70, while this blade is clearly mid/late 17th, right?

14th August 2021, 05:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,759	Good notes on the Wundes (later Weyersberg) use of the kings head markings which seem to have had variations of course. As also noted, this blade seem to be from first half 17th c. and from Solingen, as per the running wolf and SAHAGOM markings. The punzone however is so degraded that the only discernible element is the crown, which seems to be a triple point (as used in Spanish marks). It is hard to say what distinctive features are within the cartouche, but it does not seem to be a head or face as with kings heads. Spanish and other punzones often use shield shape containing whatever elements favored by the user, and the crown tops the shield. The punzone is positioned centrally at the forte which is correct for markings of maker on blade. The triple X mark is as mentioned the 'control' mark of Amsterdam, and while the 'X's are consistent, sometimes an 'A' is atop the triple X cartouche, in some cases a crown. The variation cases are unclear, but in this one, the X cartouche is diagonal and without character over it. While we cannot determine maker by the indiscernible punzone, this is clearly a Solingen product by the wolf and spurious SAHAGOM, and we may assume the punzone may be also spurious Spanish one, as often practice in German centers.

15th August 2021, 05:56 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,759	As they say in Texas, 'well! there ya have it!'!!! Thank you SO much Jasper!!! I guess now we can stop chasin' them zebras! Which book is this from?

16th August 2021, 08:39 PM	#10
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks everyone for the information. All very helpful.