Tilang Kamerau

A. G. Maisey · 18th October 2015, 09:11 PM

Thanks for that additional information Arjan.

In respect of "kamerau", this is a very common word in Malay, Indonesian, and Javanese. True, the vowels are inconsistent, but this is a characteristic of these languages, especially Javanese, which is linguistically classified as a non-standardised language. It would surprise me if "kemarau" in variant spellings was not found in a multitude of languages and dialects throughout SE Asia.

Common usage of the word is "musim kemarau" = "dry season".

Mytribalworld · 19th October 2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for that additional information Arjan.

In respect of "kamerau", this is a very common word in Malay, Indonesian, and Javanese. True, the vowels are inconsistent, but this is a characteristic of these languages, especially Javanese, which is linguistically classified as a non-standardised language. It would surprise me if "kemarau" in variant spellings was not found in a multitude of languages and dialects throughout SE Asia.

Common usage of the word is "musim kemarau" = "dry season".

so if I understand correctly nowadays its always a two word combination with the word "musim " ( season) ?

regards,

Arjan..

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2015, 09:56 AM

No Arjan, not always, but it is the usage that you hear most, simply because the year is split in two:- dry season and wet season. The word does have other applications, but the opportunity for those applications is very much less than reference to half of each year.

Mytribalworld · 19th October 2015, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No Arjan, not always, but it is the usage that you hear most, simply because the year is split in two:- dry season and wet season. The word does have other applications, but the opportunity for those applications is very much less than reference to half of each year.

Ok, so due to that most used combi I think its the modern Bahassa for dry season while the old Malay style is " bright /nice season"

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2015, 01:18 PM

I know of three usages for the word "kemarau".

1) to be without money, to be broke; in my experience this is not a common usage

2) dry, when talking about something that was wet, but is now dry, such as the bottom of a boat when it was previously covered with water

3) dry, when applied to the weather, commonly a season, when it becomes "musim kemarau", but it can also be applied to a dry spell occurring at a time other than the dry season.

I have never once encountered its use to refer to "bright" weather, in fact, the dry season in SE Asia is very, very far from being "nice". The coming of the monsoon is something that is welcomed, not its disappearance.

It is true that the way in which a word is understood can change, but for the word "kemarau" to have been understood as "bright" seems to me to be improbable. Still, anything is possible.

One further note on this matter.

The standard reference for Classical Malay, ie, the Malay used in the old literary works, is Wilkinson's Malay-English Dictionary.

Wilkinson lists "kemarau" as:- "a drought, a period of continuous absence of rain", his reference is the Hikayat Abdullah

Mytribalworld · 19th October 2015, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I know of three usages for the word "kemarau".

1) to be without money, to be broke; in my experience this is not a common usage

2) dry, when talking about something that was wet, but is now dry, such as the bottom of a boat when it was previously covered with water

3) dry, when applied to the weather, commonly a season, when it becomes "musim kemarau", but it can also be applied to a dry spell occurring at a time other than the dry season.

I have never once encountered its use to refer to "bright" weather, in fact, the dry season in SE Asia is very, very far from being "nice". The coming of the monsoon is something that is welcomed, not its disappearance.

It is true that the way in which a word is understood can change, but for the word "kemarau" to have been understood as "bright" seems to me to be improbable. Still, anything is possible.

One further note on this matter.

The standard reference for Classical Malay, ie, the Malay used in the old literary works, is Wilkinson's Malay-English Dictionary.

Wilkinson lists "kemarau" as:- "a drought, a period of continuous absence of rain", his reference is the Hikayat Abdullah

yep, I understand that only Malay- English translations are taken serious

anyway, below the Malay- Dutch translation ( . its from 1847 , the Wilkinson is from 60 years later, I don't know if that could make a difference.....

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2015, 10:02 PM

Wilkinson was not working from current usage, but from literary sources and scholarly input. His dictionary is relevant to Classical Malay, rather than Market Malay. Of course many words are used in both forms of the language, but Wilkinson is still the dictionary text for studies of Classical Malay. He drew on sources that in fact pre-dated the 1847 word list.

More than a few of these word lists seem to have been produced, the ones I've seen have been mostly Javanese, but quality and accuracy of many of them does sometimes raise some questions.

Both "helder" and "fraai" appear to have multiple meanings, dependent upon context, I have no understanding of Dutch at all, but I've had a look at a couple of dictionaries, and this seems to be the case. The usage of "fine" (fraai) appears to refer to a measure of quality, rather than in the context of weather. To my mind, this makes the word list translation even more worthy of question.

It did not occur to me previously, but "tilang" also appears in Classical Malay, not as "tilang", but as "tilan" = "a small river fish like an eel"

19th October 2015, 01:18 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	I know of three usages for the word "kemarau". 1) to be without money, to be broke; in my experience this is not a common usage 2) dry, when talking about something that was wet, but is now dry, such as the bottom of a boat when it was previously covered with water 3) dry, when applied to the weather, commonly a season, when it becomes "musim kemarau", but it can also be applied to a dry spell occurring at a time other than the dry season. I have never once encountered its use to refer to "bright" weather, in fact, the dry season in SE Asia is very, very far from being "nice". The coming of the monsoon is something that is welcomed, not its disappearance. It is true that the way in which a word is understood can change, but for the word "kemarau" to have been understood as "bright" seems to me to be improbable. Still, anything is possible. One further note on this matter. The standard reference for Classical Malay, ie, the Malay used in the old literary works, is Wilkinson's Malay-English Dictionary. Wilkinson lists "kemarau" as:- "a drought, a period of continuous absence of rain", his reference is the Hikayat Abdullah Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 19th October 2015 at 02:05 PM. Reason: provision of reference

18th October 2015, 09:11 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Thanks for that additional information Arjan. In respect of "kamerau", this is a very common word in Malay, Indonesian, and Javanese. True, the vowels are inconsistent, but this is a characteristic of these languages, especially Javanese, which is linguistically classified as a non-standardised language. It would surprise me if "kemarau" in variant spellings was not found in a multitude of languages and dialects throughout SE Asia. Common usage of the word is "musim kemarau" = "dry season".

19th October 2015, 09:56 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	No Arjan, not always, but it is the usage that you hear most, simply because the year is split in two:- dry season and wet season. The word does have other applications, but the opportunity for those applications is very much less than reference to half of each year.

19th October 2015, 10:02 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Wilkinson was not working from current usage, but from literary sources and scholarly input. His dictionary is relevant to Classical Malay, rather than Market Malay. Of course many words are used in both forms of the language, but Wilkinson is still the dictionary text for studies of Classical Malay. He drew on sources that in fact pre-dated the 1847 word list. More than a few of these word lists seem to have been produced, the ones I've seen have been mostly Javanese, but quality and accuracy of many of them does sometimes raise some questions. Both "helder" and "fraai" appear to have multiple meanings, dependent upon context, I have no understanding of Dutch at all, but I've had a look at a couple of dictionaries, and this seems to be the case. The usage of "fine" (fraai) appears to refer to a measure of quality, rather than in the context of weather. To my mind, this makes the word list translation even more worthy of question. It did not occur to me previously, but "tilang" also appears in Classical Malay, not as "tilang", but as "tilan" = "a small river fish like an eel"