The Knaud

A. G. Maisey · 3rd November 2022, 09:55 PM

Yes Gustav, precisely so.

This statue is located in the museum at Trowulan, the site of the capital of Majapahit. I visited this museum and took a number of photographs of this statue on 3rd. April 2018. This photo you have posted is exactly the same as one of my photos, but I cannot recall posting that photo to this forum.

That depression in the blade edge was caused by damage it is not original to the statue. The info board identifies this statue as either:- Garuda, or Minak Jinggo, or Maha Kala, or Bairawa. In other words they're not too sure exactly who it is supposed to be.

So, exactly when was that statue discovered and made available for public viewing?

This would have been before the Trowulan Museum existed because the museum was built in 1924, and Charles Knaud had the keris in his possession long before this.

When we know more about the statue, then we have the possibility of knowing more about when the Knaud keris was actually produced.

When I photographed the statue I made no connection between it & The Knaud, it was only later when I was looking at my photos of it that it dawned on me that I was looking at the inspiration for the Knaud Keris.

However, even without that gift of the statue with its damaged keris, there are far too many abberations present in The Knaud for it to be accepted as a product of the Majapahit era.

ADDITION

Gustav, I read your post #17 before your Post #16, but now I have looked at your #16.

You have reached the same conclusions about The Knaud that I reached about 40 years ago, but was unable to substantiate.

I reached my conclusions after I saw recently produced "Majapahit" artefacts that were being purchased in Solo by an American who lived in Solo and made his living by sending these brand new relics of past times to dealers and auction houses in USA & Europe. Then I learnt how present day forgers in Jawa did not produce forgeries for the open market, but already had the victim in mind and were in the process of priming him for the Big Hit while the forged object was being prepared. A particularly well known keris and art collector who was internationally famous as an authority on Javanese art was a favourite target of the Shonky Brotherhood.

Recognised reference books that deal with Javanese art contain photos of blatant fakes, the same is true of museum exhibits, and items in private collections. We are not talking about little money here, we are talking about very, very big money. This is still going on, right now, as I am writing this.

The reason I began to deal keris in the first place was because it was very, very obvious that in Indonesia the knowledge was held by the dealers --- as much is said in Centhini, that was 200 years ago. To truly understand any antiques or antiquities in Jawa & Bali one needs to become a dealer, nobody has the slightest possibility of learning much at all by standing outside and looking in through a window.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd November 2022, 10:43 PM

Thank you for your comments Bob.

Gustav cut through what I had hoped was going to be a few pages of group investigation, keeping interested parties busy thinking through propositions and coming to conclusions for a couple of weeks, but what he has posted is absolutely correct.

It still might be interesting to look at all the other irregularities with The Knaud, but I believe we can now see that we have all been just a little bit misled for the last 100 years or so.

Here is a link to a very good colour photo of both sides of The Knaud.

https://www.artoftheancestors.com/bl...vid-van-duuren

The overlay is bronze that is permanently fixed, the dark patches on the bronze are copper repairs. We do not know at this point how that overlay was fixed to the iron body, it might have been made and then soldered in place, or it might have been carved into the overlay of bronze at the time when this object was produced.

Anything that we believe we can deduce from looking at photos of this Knaud keris must be measured by the understanding that we are almost certainly looking at a post Majapahit production, probably post Mojo by a few hundred years or so.

But one thing that does come out of this close look at The Knaud is that David Van Duuren's book is now a publication that I believe every truly serious student of the keris needs in his book case, together with notes on tipped in half pages.

In my opinion, Mr. Van Duuren's book has now become just as essential as all the other classic keris publications.

kai · 4th November 2022, 01:42 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

This statue is located in the museum at Trowulan, the site of the capital of Majapahit. I visited this museum and took a number of photographs of this statue on 3rd. April 2018. This photo you have posted is exactly the same as one of my photos, but I cannot recall posting that photo to this forum.

Just for your peace of mind: You did post pics & close-ups of this statue here a while back.

We did discuss the broken edge of the blade back then. I did not made the connection that this might very well be the basis for the Knaud keris - it's a pretty convincing working hypothesis. Iconic and unique pieces/representations can be traps for forgers, especially when working from published pictures. If they only had stayed more true to the actual decor on the blade, the piece would have raised much fewer eyebrows!

Regards,
Kai

3rd November 2022, 09:55 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Yes Gustav, precisely so. This statue is located in the museum at Trowulan, the site of the capital of Majapahit. I visited this museum and took a number of photographs of this statue on 3rd. April 2018. This photo you have posted is exactly the same as one of my photos, but I cannot recall posting that photo to this forum. That depression in the blade edge was caused by damage it is not original to the statue. The info board identifies this statue as either:- Garuda, or Minak Jinggo, or Maha Kala, or Bairawa. In other words they're not too sure exactly who it is supposed to be. So, exactly when was that statue discovered and made available for public viewing? This would have been before the Trowulan Museum existed because the museum was built in 1924, and Charles Knaud had the keris in his possession long before this. When we know more about the statue, then we have the possibility of knowing more about when the Knaud keris was actually produced. When I photographed the statue I made no connection between it & The Knaud, it was only later when I was looking at my photos of it that it dawned on me that I was looking at the inspiration for the Knaud Keris. However, even without that gift of the statue with its damaged keris, there are far too many abberations present in The Knaud for it to be accepted as a product of the Majapahit era. ADDITION Gustav, I read your post #17 before your Post #16, but now I have looked at your #16. You have reached the same conclusions about The Knaud that I reached about 40 years ago, but was unable to substantiate. I reached my conclusions after I saw recently produced "Majapahit" artefacts that were being purchased in Solo by an American who lived in Solo and made his living by sending these brand new relics of past times to dealers and auction houses in USA & Europe. Then I learnt how present day forgers in Jawa did not produce forgeries for the open market, but already had the victim in mind and were in the process of priming him for the Big Hit while the forged object was being prepared. A particularly well known keris and art collector who was internationally famous as an authority on Javanese art was a favourite target of the Shonky Brotherhood. Recognised reference books that deal with Javanese art contain photos of blatant fakes, the same is true of museum exhibits, and items in private collections. We are not talking about little money here, we are talking about very, very big money. This is still going on, right now, as I am writing this. The reason I began to deal keris in the first place was because it was very, very obvious that in Indonesia the knowledge was held by the dealers --- as much is said in Centhini, that was 200 years ago. To truly understand any antiques or antiquities in Jawa & Bali one needs to become a dealer, nobody has the slightest possibility of learning much at all by standing outside and looking in through a window. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 3rd November 2022 at 10:19 PM. Reason: addition

3rd November 2022, 10:43 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thank you for your comments Bob. Gustav cut through what I had hoped was going to be a few pages of group investigation, keeping interested parties busy thinking through propositions and coming to conclusions for a couple of weeks, but what he has posted is absolutely correct. It still might be interesting to look at all the other irregularities with The Knaud, but I believe we can now see that we have all been just a little bit misled for the last 100 years or so. Here is a link to a very good colour photo of both sides of The Knaud. https://www.artoftheancestors.com/bl...vid-van-duuren The overlay is bronze that is permanently fixed, the dark patches on the bronze are copper repairs. We do not know at this point how that overlay was fixed to the iron body, it might have been made and then soldered in place, or it might have been carved into the overlay of bronze at the time when this object was produced. Anything that we believe we can deduce from looking at photos of this Knaud keris must be measured by the understanding that we are almost certainly looking at a post Majapahit production, probably post Mojo by a few hundred years or so. But one thing that does come out of this close look at The Knaud is that David Van Duuren's book is now a publication that I believe every truly serious student of the keris needs in his book case, together with notes on tipped in half pages. In my opinion, Mr. Van Duuren's book has now become just as essential as all the other classic keris publications.