Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th June 2015, 09:41 AM   #1
Miqueleter
Member
 
Miqueleter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 39
Default Rubens hunter

Greetings, I have been wanting to ask the members what variety of gunlock is pictured in Peter Paul Rubens An Autumn Landscape with a View of Hetsteen circa 1635. I believe it to be an agujeta of sorts. Detail in paintings leave a lot to the imagination. But given the time and place of the painting, agujeta or maybe some sort of romanlock seems likely.

Anyone care to take a stab at it?

[IMG][/IMG]
Miqueleter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2015, 05:05 PM   #2
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 663
Default

hello

I can not or will not enlarge the image to see the details ...

Fernando K
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2015, 09:21 PM   #3
Miqueleter
Member
 
Miqueleter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 39
Default

Fernando K, I see what you mean. I will do some more work and come up with a zoomed image later today. Sorry about that.
Miqueleter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2015, 10:19 PM   #4
Miqueleter
Member
 
Miqueleter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 39
Default

Fernando, as you may suspect, I am not a whiz at posting photos, so this one may be overkill.

[IMG][/IMG]
Miqueleter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2015, 10:50 PM   #5
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 663
Default

Quizás quisiste decir: Hola, Miguelete Es imposible aventurar alguna opinion, pero te diria que no se trata de la agujet porque no se ve el gancho de seguridad, detras del cock, y se adivina un resorte doblado del frizeen. Para mi, el artista quiso pintar un miquelete clasico. Por comparacion hay algunos autores españoles, que han reflejado exactamente la agujet y el miguelete. En este foro, hay un post iniciado por Matchlock, con la agujet en una pintura, hay una pintura de Francisco de Goya, Carlos III cazador, con una escopeta de miquelete Afectuosamente. Fernando K P: He escrito agujet sin la A final por problemas con el traductor
Hello, Migueleter

It is impossible to venture any opinion, but I would say that is not the agujet because there is safety hook, behind the cock, and a bent spring frizeen guess. For me, the artist wanted to paint a classic miquelete.

By comparison there are some Spanish authors who have reflected exactly the agujet and miguelete. In this forum, there is a post initiated by Matchlock, with agujet in a painting is a painting of Francisco de Goya, Carlos III hunter with a shotgun miquelete

Affectionately. Fernando K

P: D: I have written without the final A agujet problems with the translator
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2015, 09:55 AM   #6
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 238
Default

A comparison with one of our Algerian toe locks shown cocked and viewed at a similar oblique angle . Surely it has to be a toe lock which is one of the simplest and probably earliest form of snapping type locks . Competitive with the Miguelet in Spain , contemporary with the wheelock in Italy, widely distributed though Russia and primitive versions are still being used in Tibet.
Attached Images
 
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2015, 10:32 AM   #7
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

poor doggie, his feet look like they've been worn out, all the ligaments stretched. one of my doggy rescue friends had a 2 yr., old galgo dog come in with feet like that from running all day behind a romany traveller's wagon.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew; 3rd July 2015 at 07:09 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2015, 08:45 PM   #8
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 663
Default

hello

In any case the plate is extended in front of Frizen, which does not happen in the agujet. In addition, there are some migueletes that cock pole is tilted, not straight or depends on the position (half-cock, full-cock)

However, the image can not hazard a review

Affectionately. Fernando
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2015, 10:25 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Hi Miqueleter,
You have been long enough with us to know we strongly discourage links to web photo hosts. Links vanish and threads stay ... with blanks
Please care to upload pictures wit the forum attachment features, next time.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2015, 12:47 AM   #10
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Migueleter, I would like to thank you for opening this thread! While I know little on these guns, I find it fascinating to see these art works analyzed in their content, especially the weaponry. This is an exciting view into history THROUGH the weapons.. and as noted, certain artists seem to have been remarkably accurate in depictions, giving us wonderful context.

The discussion here is most rewarding for those of us who wish to learn more on these arms, and as Fernando has well noted, it is disappointing to lose the illustrations so pertinent to it.

Best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2015, 04:24 AM   #11
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default

Could it be a snaphaunce? The frozen appears to me to be of that type.
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2015, 06:50 AM   #12
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

i suspect there is a bit of artistic license in the depiction of the weapon in the painting (and of the dog).

p.s. -i'd posted (as attachment) a large screen capture of the hunter so we'd have it available in case Miqueleter's link broke. i have since found a much larger image of the whole painting to cut the hunter from & attached it above instead.

p.s. - don't think that helped much, still too little detail of the lock.

Last edited by kronckew; 3rd July 2015 at 07:25 AM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2015, 10:10 AM   #13
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 238
Default

Sorry to labour the point . If we are going to assume the diagonal line across the lock plate is an external mainspring then in both miquelet and toe locks the mainspring starts being roughly horizontal , that is parallel with the barrel . Or in some migulet's slightly up hill . In the Minqulet since the spring acts on the rear of the cock at full cock it points either downhill or roughly horizontal . in a toe lock at full cock the mainspring points uphill which I think is what is shown in the painting . Yes, the miquelet shown is Albanian but the principles the same . Anyway , to help people make up their own mind here are a couple of aqujetas ; sorry I have lost the source of the painting but I think its Spanish and the other possible candidates which are italian locks .

For clarification the aqujeta was the Spanish version of the Italian toe lock or romanlock and may have been introduced from Italy. The defining characteristic of the aqujeta is the dog catch behind the cock used to resolve the half cock problem. The cock is pulled back beyond the full cock position and the dog catch pushed forward to engage with the cock . Pulling the cock backwards slightly automatically disengages the catch and the cock drops onto the horizontally moving full cock sear which engages with the rear foot of the cock .
Attached Images
    

Last edited by Raf; 3rd July 2015 at 02:48 PM.
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2015, 05:19 AM   #14
Miqueleter
Member
 
Miqueleter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 39
Default

RAF, thanks for saving my bacon with your correct posting of images. For all others (Fernando K, fernando, and Jim, ever the Gentleman) my apologies for being stupid by using another forums image rules. I will do better in the future. I could lay it all on a recent illness, but I'd be fibbing.

I'm liking the responses to the post. Guessing what a painter knew or had at hand for reference objects is just that-guessing.

Again, thanks to all.
Miqueleter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.